What are your first impressions of 0.8.6 testing?
- new SPG lines
- visibility mechanics (bushes ok?)
- new damage mechanics, penetration, HE
- sounds
- dynamic camera
- new map
- performance on new drivers
Any other issues/comments?
- new SPG lines
- visibility mechanics (bushes ok?)
- new damage mechanics, penetration, HE
- sounds
- dynamic camera
- new map
- performance on new drivers
Any other issues/comments?
I took a battle in my Sturmpanzer II (29 arties in one battle), got my gun damaged and gunner killed. Aiming circle in normal view couldn't fit in the screen. 0.8.6 looks interesting.
ReplyDelete29!!??
DeleteMust be 2.9 )
DeleteWe had 14 arties and T2 light enemy had 15. Mainly new German tier IV.
DeleteCommon problem on test server, almost everyone plays the new or changed vehicles so that's all that fills the queue. Since the big changes in 8.6 are to arty, there's going to be a ton of SPGs out there.
DeleteStill, I would have thought with the cap that it would split that pool into a bunch of smaller games. Or does queue dump override the cap?
Cap will paralyse the MMing on test server.
DeleteSome near invisible meds, arty nerfs are sad, sounds are creepy, dynamic camer sucks, spall liner works agains hesh which is nice, E100 can ding heat fired at not angled side armor - some very heat hungry spaced armor.
ReplyDeleteMost annoying is that my t110 with optics get spoted and shot by meds which are invisible.
Arty is feeling a lot more balanced. Very slow aim time, reload slower, bloom is really bad when moving the circle. I really notice the slower trajectory (shell travel time) as well. Hitting those pesky scouts on the mvoe is going to be next to impossible. That said I am still managing to dish out decent damage and get kills (with Object 212)- BUT people play less cautiously on the test server so we'll see. GW Panther feels awful, but I never much liked it before. I prefer slow, splash-heavy arties.
ReplyDeleteAs above, sounds are awful and E100 was bouncing like a boss.
What I like:
ReplyDelete- Accuracy with using of Gaussian distribution
- New map
- Incrase of credit/xp ratio for artys/TD's
- Boosts with earned credits for T10's
- New spall liners!
What I don't like
- You just killed all arties... Scout's will become less useful
- HEAT's nerf, KV-2 will become useless, like all others 105mm troll gun's
(Vk2801 got next heavy nerf again!!! Really it was soo OP?)
- Bison tier 3 = ok, but 12 shells only?!?!
- Way that's camera works
Also reducing accracy of the arties make's now hiting a scout impossible, I think you should give them at least more splash, and more damage reduction from splash damage for heavly armored targets.
This patch will bring heavy changes for ALL 7vs7 Matches... Writing this as a member of Evil Panda Squad
Skyspirit
"HEAT's nerf, KV-2 will become useless, like all others 105mm troll gun's (Vk2801 got next heavy nerf again!!! Really it was soo OP?)"
DeleteLong, long ago in the dark times, when premium ammo was only for gold no one thought about shooting HEAT shells from this guns and still KV 2 was feared by all and 105 mm howitzers in Shermans, Pz IV's, Stugs or Hetzers were killing many tanks, which were not wise enough to keep far from them.
More then one year ago I played with Sherman Jumbo with 105 mm howitzer using ONLY HE ammo. It was my moneymaker then. In those times we were fighting even against tier IX tanks! We were fighting against E-75's or IS-4's using only HE shells! And we were still thinking that Jumbo is awsome tank!
I also play StuG, but ONLY with 75 L70 (using normal AP ammo).
So do not tell me that tanks with derp guns will become useless cause I know the truth.
Still, VK2801 is useless with nerfs to gold AND he rounds.
DeleteWhy not give it a gun which is uselefull at least against tier 6 and 7 tanks like t21 and amx 12t have?
"I also play StuG, but ONLY with 75 L70 (using normal AP ammo)."
DeleteSo, where is the promised good gun on the Pz IV? The L/48 is pathetic, I'm bouncing all over with it, like from an Alecto...
On the other hand Pz IV was fine with HE shells for me, and the stat padders can still use HEAT against tier V opponents, so the whole HEAT nerf was pointless in my opinion. And as Teppa said, the VK2801 is ruined now. I'm sure I will sell it after the patch goes live. At least I will keep the 3 skilled crew, so I can use them if WG finally introduces the RU 251 tier VIII light tank for the germans.
Crusader and M7 do not have better guns then Pz IV, so I do not know, why all cry about Pz IV. And you still have 10,5 cm gun. It is good weapon even when you use only HE ammo. In Crusader the only reasonable choice is 110 mm penetration gun with 75 mm dmg, the same is - IIRC - in M7.
DeleteHave you read what I wrote? I said, that the Pz IV is fine with the 10,5 HE shells...
DeleteYes, you demanded better gun on Pz IV. And I showed that Pz IV has better choice of guns that some other tier V meds.
DeleteHE got nerved as well. At least it is said so but i couldn't check it myself by now. And while HE might work on Pz IV, on the VK2801 the gun is pure garbage and waste of money, HE dealing abysmally small dmg and HEAT won't pen anymore.
DeleteAlso M7 and Crusader are far more mobile then Pz IV and Crusader has better camo, especially on the move.
The M4 Sherman got the derp gun, it's more mobile than the Pz IV, and it still got a better non derp gun than the L/48...
DeleteAnd the M4 has a shell-eating mantlet and better view range. Don't know where Pz IV is better. Though Dead_Skin_Mask was speaking of Crusader and M7 and even they have advantages
Delete"Crusader and M7 and even they have advantages"
DeleteAnd disadvantages.
For example they have worse armor then Pz IV, less HP and do not have such powerful derp gun.
@ Márton Nacsa June 1, 2013 at 12:52 PM
Delete"So, where is the promised good gun on the Pz IV? The L/48 is pathetic, I'm bouncing all over with it, like from an Alecto..."
That is "historical" :) But the same gun on a Tier 6 premium medium Pz V/IV... ridicolous.
If you need to use premium ammo to play or beat another tank then you are terrible at the game. Old timers like myself played the game when no one used HEAT or premium ammo in the game and you actually had to aim at weak points.
DeleteIt's funny seeing lal these people cry over different tanks and guns they see is not viable that many of us used and excelled with.
I like the accuracy
ReplyDeletecamo is too strong - I literally drove by to a GWPAnther who shot and I did not see it - until it moved.
interesting. people in the official forum (german section) are crying about camo being useless and everything gets spotted across the whole map with the first shot. looks like i have to install the test server and see for myself
DeleteFeedback on camos has been controversial thus far. Some say its insufficient, others - that it's surplus.
DeleteI am not a racist/nazi, but germans mainly cry. They whine about nerf/buffs etc. So if i knew german better than in general i would tell them, that - change vechicles if you think german Tiger or something is UP compares to IS or KV3. They cant get it - it's an arcade game, not their nazi granddads memorial ;) BTW camo works fine. Finally it's rewarding to have camo skill or camo net on JgPzE100 or JgTiger !
DeleteCzarek Kakowski
DeleteI'am a German, but I also do tests before professionaly whining
about it on the forum.
Yes, the camo net now has a greater effect on a JgdTiger,
but even with a camo net, it is now visible from 240 meter,
being behind a bush!!! If that's a camo works fine for you than...well, have it your way.
German TD's have the worst camo rating, that means, that they will be one of the few things that are visible from the moon!
So right, they whine the most, because it hits German TD's the most.
I also have almost all TD's from all other nations up to Tier 9(only t95 and Foch missing).
Snortsch, you should ask German engineers, while they build such huge TD's. Vehicle is huge like a barn and you want it to have great camo?
DeleteBy the way Stug, Marder or Jagpanzer IV have for example great camo, so your claim is true only in case of top tier German TD's, which are huge, so they have bad camo. Thats logical for me.
That's not the point at all.
DeleteBefore 8.6 first test, you could hide big TD's very well
by using trees and bushes. This has been completely taken
away, making it a more problematic thing for the German TD's
than others (actually the new British bunker TD's have the
same problem to be fair).
I don't say that German TD's shouldn't have the worst camo (at least the big ones). I say that it's a much bigger problem now than before, because on some maps (Malinovka etc.) you have to rely on trees as cover, this makes big German TD's sitting ducks.
Trees and bushes got nerfed in the current system, so while camo net rework did good to huge vehicles, the first adjustment - didn't.
DeleteCzarek Kakowski, I almost believed you that you are not a racist, until you posted that "nazi granddad" comment. If you had only written "granddad" ... you racist.
DeleteI don't like that the dynamic camera is tied to the tank rocking when firing the gun. If this will remain, I will not use the dynamic camera.
HAHA great news about cammo, now you will all know what it feels like to drive my Cent 7/1 with the base cammo of the bismark!
DeleteThe arty should not be able to shoot scouts unless point blank, they are not designed for that, the team should kill scouts. This is a tank game after all not an arty game.
The logic behind huge German TDs not having camo is flawed considering some Russian SPGs are larger than german TDs yet have better camo. I've been to Kubinka and see how large these tanks are.
DeleteAdditional note, German Tds were designed to shoot great distances in some cases greater than 2000m with pinoint accuracy, out of range of counterfire, the game maps and mechanics dont allow German TDs to fulfill the role they were designed for.
totaly great patch except the arty in of of it's aspects ...
ReplyDeleteNew maps and new tanks...
ReplyDeleteOh wait, same as the last patches.
You seem to have missed the major part of the news.
DeleteI only played one game as an arty, and it was as an M40/M43, but that was enough. I immediately went back to the main server and retired it from my active lineup. Maybe I'll come back to arty at some point, but not now.
ReplyDeleteThe aim time, accuracy, load time and shell speed combine for a supremely un-fun experience. I don't know why anyone would want to play 8.6 artillery.
The truly sad part is that the arty nerfs STILL don't make them balanced to play against. Arty alpha is STILL ridiculously high, so they STILL one-shot way more things than they should.
In some ways, that's even worse now with the tier realignment. The S-51 should never be firing at tier 5's. Never. If it hits AT ALL, it one-shots AND it basically wastes a shot. 1800 damage on a 460 hit point tank that's probably already partially damaged?
I seriously have no idea what you guys are trying to do. Arty seems to be highly antagonistic to people who play as them, people who play with them and people who play against them.
Will get more info on SPGs rebalancing next week.
DeleteIf all of the 8.6 changes to SPG were kept with the EXCEPTION of AIM time then I think most people, including me, would be fine with it. Because at the end of the day the aim time is the most annoying part. Once you hit the transverse edge it totally resets and makes the SPG useless as trying to stop a Sherman tank wit a thrown brick.
DeleteNEMO.
1. new SPG lines
ReplyDeleteMany people complain now that arties are sometimes top tanks. Maybe you just should artficialy lower them in team list below all other tier VIII tanks to limit this wining. IMO it is normal in situation, when SPG have MM spread like other tanks. But real effects of these change will be visible on real server, test is too strange place to show us all aspects in that case. I hope all these changes will limit SPG presence in battles.
2. visibility mechanics (bushes ok?)
I have alraedy written everything in the previous post about single premium account. In around 20 more battles I played in the evening all was rather OK. The bigger problem are tanks dissapearing due to some problems with refreshing (server, my PC, patch - I have no idea what causes it) testing arty I had situation when I have seen tanks on minimap but not in sniper view and both enemies and allies.
3. New damage mechanics, penetration, HE
No issues, I think that changes are good. Specially premium ammo price changes cause some shells were much to cheap, although I do not understand, why you sold all my premium ammo for konisch :)
HEAT ammo nerf is great decision. IMO it should happen a few patches earlier. Playing with these ammo was much too easy.
All these changes together with normalisation change will surely limit premium ammo usage and it will be - as it should be - an ammo for special situations.
4. sounds
Some explosions are strange.
5.
I hate reticle shaking after every shot (I like to watch tracer of my shell :) ) so I turned it off.
6. new map
I was only 2 times there so hard to say anything wise (the more so battles were very short cause teams were not full). Looks interesting, it seems that it won't be campfest map and will offer funny battles.
7. Any other issues/comments?
Apart from issues with dissapearing tanks due to some lags I had in many cases very long modules update, when switching between tanks in my garage. On normal server today it was OK.
And general problem with test server
It is very hard to test lower tier tanks. People usually play with middle and higher tier premiums and IX and X tier normal vehicles. I think that it was better, when we were grinding on test, but ten times faster. Today I was trying to play with Su-26. I waited twice for 5 minute and got no battle at all. So I resigned. I prefer old system of testing (grind with x10).
Patch seems to be good. Less premium ammo, weaker arties. Thats smth for me :) I only hope that those performence issues I had are caused by server, not by patch.
Oh I forgot one thing. I was very surprised, when I get info that my SPG got 200 spotted damage. I have seen that tank on map and I was even shooting at him, but he was hundreds of meters away. Much further then M44 viewrange. I was behind base circle in the eastern base of Arctic Region, while that tank was close to the big rock in the middle of southern part of map.
DeleteI was thinkig that earlier he had to came closer to base, I spotted him but I was busy somwhere else and didn't noticed him, while I was still undetected behind bush, someone shot him and he run away. But after I read Hadrian's post I wonder if it could be such strange far range spot.
Have some performance issues with the test servers. That won't happen on the main servers.
DeleteRegarding your case, yup that does sound like a real situation with the new mechanics. Bushes might need some buff :)
Well, but when I have seen him he was so far, that I shouldn't even spot him if we were both in the open field. Pity that I am not recording replays, cause now it is hard to check what really happened and when I spotted him.
DeleteOverlord, I know what had happened. There was no strange spotting. I had today similar situation and watched more closely after battle report. And I realised that in the previous case I had detracked those tank, when my SPG hit him, and this was in my stats (I previously had no idea that dmg from spotting and detracking are given together in report).
DeleteThis morning I have also spend more time on a new map checking all routes. Very interesting, very nice, with many nice places for guerilla tactics, but I think that all those, who will go in to the center, will have serious problems :). I can't wait to play there serious battles.
And some small things
I wonder why premium ammo for T32 top gun is more expensive then for M103 top gun :)
And I noticed that you have repaired bridge in the Westfield. But on screen, which we see when the battle loads, bridge is destroyed.
I like 0.8.6 very much the dynamic camera is just what I always wanted. But it would be more realistically that you only get Dynamic camera after you mounted stabilization equipment but then again it's an arcade game.
ReplyDeleteThe arty re-balancing is awesome, I no longer get nuked from the sky completely randomly anymore and I don't have to take cover as much anymore.
And the accuracy is lovely and much more realistic, usually you'd have to relay on luck but this time it's more skill based which I like.
overall I'd wanted more new maps but I'll pray they will come in the next patch or the one after that.
At this moment, I am undediced whether it's a good patch or not. Accuracy buff is good, but it's a double edged sword - I tested my T110 and somehow it seems more vulnerable than it was before. Due to amounts of arties in battles it's really hard to test heavy tanks properly, but I think T9-T10 arty could do with more nerfs.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I am not really that happy about 8.7 bringing MORE arty (British, no less)...
It's inevitable (more arty).
DeleteTest server has always been not of much use for balancing tests, because of "special" conditions and "particular" behaviour.
Overlord, could you provide some insight as to why the devs decided not to touch alpha on artillery? It seems that in high tier games that is the biggest complaint about it, but the devs decided to make the artillery system more random than before while not addressing the players biggest concern.
ReplyDeleteThanks
Accuracy and aiming time nerfs, improved spall liners indirectly reduce alpha of SPGs.
DeleteReally I didnt see that in my Maus, not one bounce no matter how I positioned myself all pentrating hits more of my module were knocked out than before etc arty hit still does the same amount of dmg it seems Penning the Maus appears to be normal (8.5) dont see any differences What I do see is that the cost of gold rounds has gone up should be left alone. Arty reticle doesnt highlite the target shells goes out of the target area more so than 8.5 So far havent seen the new map to evaluate it.
DeleteAccuracy buff benefits the Russian tanks and Newbies
Takes no skill at all now to hit another tank just aim and shoot
278 disappears quite easily now u see now u dont thing
You know what *really* reduces alpha? Reducing damage.
DeleteIf the problem is alpha, why would you leave it alone and nerf everything else? Either the game designers are literally insane or they disagree that alpha is the main problem.
The way spall liners work is utter crap. By now they reduce the actual damage taken be 5-10% depending on the gun.
DeleteIMO they should reduce the damage taken and not improve the armor for non-penetrating HE hits. Why not give spall liners the ability to reduce actual damage taken by 30%, meaning a 1000HP hit would only take away 700 HP. Still enough damage but at least a remarkable reduction of damage taken to chose spall liner over gun laying device or something else.
Accuracy: With the reports coming from the test server, it seems the any accuracy nerfs are nonexistent or even buffs to accuracy due to the new shot distribution mechanics.
DeleteThe new spall liners aren't very effective on heavy but lightly armored tanks like the fv215b, or any tank that doesn't rely on raw thickness.
I agree with Jeremiah.
DeleteThe accuracy nerf is pretty much if not completely undone by the distribution of shots that will be implemented from 8.6 henceforth.
Limits on damage per shot is what should have been adressed more then anything else with regards to artillery.
Accuracy is not important to discuss. The AIM times are what will slow SPGs down. Effectively Accuracy is the same as always. But the AIM time is what will control SPG damage output not to mention the reload times factoring in a little bit. Plus SPALL liners are insane on Maus. I took round after round of HE on the test server. Lots of fun.
DeleteNEMO.
Hang on I though WG said the accuracy (shot distribution) change was not being applied to the SPGs? If they have they have completely negated everything they have done and it will be the end for me...
DeleteSo far a good patch. What I really like is the sound improvement, bounces and non pens sound fantastic.
ReplyDeleteSry met to say 268 just another point I am not impress with this patch. the aiming accuracy to me is dumbing dn the game, I see some changes in arty aat this stage why not remove arty from the game with the nerfs players that play arty just might not play any more, to be more effective in balancing game Cap arty to 2-3 per maych players are ok with 1 or 2 but to nerf the way u have in 8.6 is not the way to go leave load time aiming shell dispence alone adjust the Alpha that would be a better move in the Long term.
ReplyDeleteAgain I see no difference in Penning tanks gold rounds still pen just as easy as 8.5 or course u have that random shot where it should have pen but doesnt
Oh what happened to the free xp?
you kidding? dumbing it down? They reduced pen and increased acc so that means u need to aim at weakspots, which means it will actually be of use to be a good player not jut click and hope and have it hit outside the circle and save a bad player becuase RNG said so
DeleteNot kidding at all! pen values r still skewd Get into battle with a Maus put the new 30% liner on I have to yet to see any difference Now I just aim and shoot dont have to take to much time as before and Bamm pen dmg repeat not that hard to understand.
Deleteits the test server....Everyone is slinging gold rounds, you can't go by that at all so save your judgement for when it's on the real server.
DeleteThe reduced RNG is great.
ReplyDeleteArty didn't fix the problem (too much alpha) but does appear to have made arty really unfun to play. Is the plan to make arty so painful to play that people stop doing it?
The vk2801 desperately needs the konish now that the 10.5 is useless against the tanks it faces.
Disappointed that my trained up M7 Priest crew will find themselves on a Tier 3 tank.
ReplyDeleteWhy not just rename them so if you had a Priest you have an M37 and vice-versa? Maybe there's only a few of us who played a lot with the old M7 but i's a shame to see the crew demoted like this.
Only one concern: camo skill is now of very little value, especially compared to what it takes to bring the entire crew to having it.
ReplyDeleteYou have nerfed the already horrible state of SPG's more, congratulations overlord! Has your team even looked at the statistics for arty coming off the NA server? If so, then why does tier 8 arty, consistently, have a lower win rate than every other tank at an equivalent matchmaking tier, and yet WG still nerfs it?
ReplyDeleteRecent Win Rates on the Object 261, BC 155, T92, and GW E type sit at 52, 51.3, 51.8, and 50.8% respectively. For comparison, lets look at some heavy tanks at the same battle tier.
T57H 55.7%
FV215B 53.8%
T110E5 53.7%
AMX 50B 53.5%
113 53.3%
E-100 52.6%
only three top tier heavy tanks get a lower average win rate on the NA server than ANY of the top tier artillery, they are
IS-4 51.9%
IS-7 50.8%
Maus 50.4%
Lets compile a full list for you of all the top tier heavy, medium, TD's and Arty so you can see just how badly arty is doing ^^
AMX50-155 56.7% <-- this is honestly insane, please nerf this
T57H 55.7%
BC 25t 55.5%
Leopard 1 55.1%
O-268 54.9%
T62A 54.5%
121 54.4%
FV215B 53.8%
T110E5 53.7%
M48A1 53.7%
O-263 53.7%
FV4202 53.6%
AMX 50B 53.5%
113 53.3%
E-50M 53.0%
T110E3 52.8%
E-100 52.6%
T110E4 52.2%
O-261 52.0% <- arty
IS-4 51.9%
T92 51.6% <- arty
BC 155 51.3% <- arty
IS-7 50.8%
FV215b183 50.8% <- high damage gun
GW ET 50.8% <- arty
Maus 50.4%
JP E-100 50.4% <- high damage gun
That's how it all stacks up, look at how low arty sits. This is what I've been saying, this is why I've been practically screaming at you. The win rate is key, because when you calculate all variables to the value of a tank then run it through battle after battle and collect the data sample sizes possible in WoT its true effectiveness shows in its win rate.
Every tank that has the possibility of one hitting a tank, or potentially causing catastrophic damage has been nerfed to the point where that potential simply isn't enough to make the tank competitive. It's all due to the power creep in the game, many people complain, and WG gives in to them despite their complaints being unfounded.
All this data is post 8.5 and pre 8.6
The 8.6 patch will not only nerf arty further, but buff all other tanks against it, including the ones residing among them on the list. Arty scores will go down, those tank scores will go up. Arty will become the least effective top tier tank in the game AND the most expensive to run.
Congratulations, Overlord, you set a fine example for Eastern European game development. (I really hope you can sense my sarcasm because I'm laying it on thick)
So you want to see competitive gaming? You're going to get a ton of AMX50-155's, BC 25t's, and T57H's, with a handful of O-261's mixed in for arty, because arty still has a purpose.
DeleteCompetitive gaming is all about min/maxing, you take the very best and learn how to use it, the only way to get any sort of diversity of play into competitive gaming is to make the very best of a player's equipment, eg. tanks, as close to the very worst as possible.
A further note as to what you should shoot for. So far, the average win rate for all of the tier 10 or soon to e tier 10 vehicle when you break all the data down is 53.06%. 53% is also about the median score with the vehicle win rates. That's your benchmark on how tier 10's generally play, and that should be your win rate goal for balancing them out. Every tank and gun carriage currently above a 53% average win rate should receive an appropriate nerf, and every tank and gun carriage under 53% average win rate should receive an appropriate buff, yes, this includes SPG's.
DeleteIncidentally, I'm no long complaining about the so called "russian bias" when I get killed by an is-7 or is-4, which now that I think about it rarely happens. What you could do, bring the average damage of the is-7 gun to 520, and give a fire rate buff and slight damage nerf to the is-4. Take the damage down to 420 and give it another 0.8 rpm.
By the way, if you're looking for an analyst I'm up for hire, don't speak much Russian, though.
I look forward to your reply, Overlord.
Delete53% is a bit too high, yes. 47.5 - 51.5 is a more or less acceptable frame. Also we take into account all cumulative stat data from all 3 main regions, which can be slightly different from a single server. Not much usually, though.
DeleteNot forgetting a lot more unskilled people play arty, because it is too easy to play at present, these people dont possess the skills to drive a tank (or even be allowed a knife and fork at meal times TBH) The main influence is that 5 big arty pieces unbalances a game, These vehicles are SUPPORT vehicles, it should not be possible to carry a game in Arty, and I do believe that 53% is too high. But least we forget that some vehicles are "Hard Mode" some people like to call them, like the FV4202, a very hard tank to drive and unbalanced with buggy armour and stupid low speed for a med, yet top players are doing well in it. Im not sure if global winrate can be the only quantifier in regards to balance. Average damage would be a good stat to have across the player base as well.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteYou could add real reload time, view .... depend of skills in a garage.
ReplyDeleteI think show real number in statistic.
DeleteHi Overlord,
ReplyDeleteThe accuracy buff is awesome! Now it's more skill and less random
luck.
The camo nerf is terrible! Everybody can be seen from around 300 meters,
even behind a bush! Usually you needed to fire to get this result.
I never thought I'm going to say that in WoT, but "Buff bushes!!!" ^^
The arty nerf feels less of a Thing because more tanks are now visible to it.
The spall liners were useless before and they are useless now.
They reduce the amount of damage by such a small amount, that the 25% damage
spread has more effect on the outcome than the spall liner.
I would have liked a "this is your damage, now it gets reduced by armour and now by 30% thanks to your spall liner.
All in all it feels like a TD nerf, despite the increased accuracy, because
you are now captain obvious, even with the Object 704.
Arty feels the same to me, but I'm not a great arty Player anyway ^^
If I could prevent it from entering the live server, I wouldn't be sure what to do.
Also turning your tank in sniper mode is super wonky, it moves like it was made of rubber, moving on rubber ground. But I assume that that's a bug ^^
I hope you ask not only out of curiosity, but have some influence on future updates...
ReplyDeleteWhat all whining players don't understand is that this game is (was) all about paper-stone-scissors. And it's what you in WG start forgetting too when you try to level everyone so hard that you smash them into the ground.
Pre 8.6 battles:
* NO arty - stupid lemming trains rushing mostly head on, practically NO tactical gameplay. Fast-paced, if that is an advantage?
* 1 arty - players see that there's arty and try to be cautious a bit because of habit but arty itself is not major factor on the battlefield, just helps a bit here and there. Still, it changes other players behavior.
* 2-3 arty - slower, cautious gameplay with tactical approach. Players make effort and try to think. That's what i like best.
* more than 3 arty - gods are raging. Instead of important asset, arty becomes major force, breaking gameplay.
That was from the point of non-arty player. It shows that arty is not "ultimate evil", just one part of paper-stone-scissors triangle.
It's too early to say anything about 8.6 battle balance because of "unique" character of test server ;) , but i see that you try to make battles playable on higher amount of arties - what happens to games with smaller number of arty? I fear lemming trains and promotion of not thinking.
I am also curious what happens to e-sports, can't wait to see that...
From arty player pov: nerfing reload that hard make arty dpm sub-par. Combined with accuracy nerf, makes taking risk shots not worth it - you wait more and more, and then some more - just to be sure that you don't waste time on reload and next aiming, and that makes arty exponentially less efficient as an asset in battle. You may ping "requesting fire" all the time in the world but most likely you won't live to see that supporting fire coming...
It also makes scouts less profitable so you damaged everyone but line tanks - making game less brain-demanding.
Most skills/perks are useless for arty anyway, so there's little help beyond 100% crews. On the bright side, buffing profit to standard level may still make arty grind not so depressing ("at least i didn't lose money"), but no telling how it works for new players.
Arty is all about the gun. So, why make high tier hp and armor monsters? Why make some arties so fast that they can run away from scouts? Why not make them more glass cannons instead?
If arty should be bad at TD-mode why not nerf it without hampering legit orbit-mode? Previous mobility nerfs damaged aiming and relocation capabilities, not only TD-mode. Maybe make two accuracy stat values, one for orbit and one for TD? It would fit different aiming methods for los and non-los irl.
Arty is a range weapon, let it stay useful at range and make more vulnerable in close quarters (remember: paper-stone-scissors).
(disclaimer: this is not a whine ;) , just analysis and highlighting a possible different approach)
As for other:
It would be good to have new map / standard rotation switch in garage for like 2-3 weeks from update. It would allow players to learn the map - less whining in consequence as this game is about knowing the map, not improvising. And you can do this with mini update.
Accuracy: what i'd like to see is triple ring barrel reticle, with rings for 1-sigma, 2-sigma and 3-sigma; and that means 3-sigma spread too. As for "accuracy" stat, you can leave it on 2-sigma or recalculate for 3-sigma value (it's just a stat), spread would be nearly identical to 8.6, it is quite good. It would serve educational purpose too ;) . Accuracy buff itself requests drawing distance cap buff - it won't be OP for snipers because of penetration drop over distance.
For good open maps, my clan usually took 4 arty into each game, this is in north Africa where the maps are basically just sand river and el halluf. It was tactical gameplay, all the tanks waited, just peeking up for spots, the scouts did their thing to find the main push, then when they were sited the tanks help back while the arty did their work. We'd get about 2 shots each off if the enemy was smart and rushing, that would break maybe one or two tanks out of usually 8-9 to weak hp. When we lost territory, the enemy rushed so that our arty couldn't do its job before the main forces collided. Don't say that when there's more than 3 arty there is no tactics, it's simply the tactic of sitting back and waiting for the perfect moment to strike doesn't work. High arty games require a different, tactic, one that isn't cowering behind a rock and waiting for the inevitable. Sometimes you have to run through the fire to get burned a little instead of trying to run away and getting burned a lot.
DeleteIndeed. ^^
DeleteIf the AIM time was like 8.5 there would be little complaining. Because it is the AIM reset that is always the problem. The rest can be delt with on the fly.
NEMO.
Sry Overlord but this last arty nerf killed game for me. I won't be playing any more but i did had some nice time paying this game and made new friends in fact we moved together on game i wont advertise here :)
ReplyDeleteI wish you luck in future projects and yes i still look forward for World of Battleships!!
Until that one starts........
Say it, War Thunder, say it!
DeleteHavent heard of it
DeleteAre you serious? It may not be a competitor to WoT (at least not YET), but it's surely one hell of a competitor for WoWP. WarThunder.com, obviously.
Deletehe is trolling you :)
DeleteI was sure of it, but anyway... the link could be useful to people who really never heard of it so far. :)
DeleteSo you play world of tanks, and you play arty, they nerf arty a little and make the tank better and the games dead for you, that just weak, play tanks man and stop your blubbering.
Deletehttp://worldoftanks.com/news/2371-wargaming-heads-e3-2013/
ReplyDeleteCan you comment on this, especially Get Airborne Event. Is this NA exclusive or will everyone be able to participate.
I would like to hear why this even is limited to NA only. IMHO all WoWp betatesters deserves a chance to get 5000 gold in WoT for playing 200 battles in WoWp durring the E3.
DeleteIt's limited to NA only:
Delete"This is a special event for E3 attends only and NA players. EU players are sadly not able to benefit from it. " - from EU community manager.
EU has gamescom, guys. Please, have some patience. :)
DeleteHey Overlord, was wondering if you can divulge the changes that have been made to the Premium tank T26E4? Has the armour been nerfed? If so has the gun been made more adequate as a consequence to keep the tank competitive. I seem to recall Serb posting that premium tanks dont gwt nerfed, cant find the article for the time being. Just a little bit concerned that I and many other people will have another expensive premium tank like the Lowe that has greatly depleted gameplay value.
ReplyDeleteOn a lighter note the Apcr and Heat round balancing is a huge positive.
Cheers
Cheerz
There were no changes specifically to SuperPershing. Why?
DeleteThe armour model has been modified on the test server. The changes have reduced its effective armour, which is the selling of this tank.
DeleteWhy is there negative changes being implemented to a sub par performing tank that people have outlayed money for?
Cheers
Accidentally most likely. Haven't heard of any planned changes to it.
DeleteInteresting. There are several posts on NA forums, various blogs about it. Even apparent comments from yourself on the issue being an accident, Serb of course countering what you said stating that the nerf would happen pending results from the test server.
DeleteIf you really want to aim for historical accuracy with the T26E4 then why not give it historical gun, not the low pen gun it has now. Then you would be justified in nerfing an under performing tank.
Cheers
The 8.6 bush Nerf isn't exactly the most enlightening thing to do.
ReplyDeleteNow you just removed the uses of bushes. Nobody is going to take the age old knowledge of hiding behind bushes seriously now.
Check this test made after bushes nerf. http://ftr-wot.blogspot.cz/2013/05/086-jpz-e-100-camouflage-effect.html
DeleteIt shows that bush is still useful.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhen is it coming out?
ReplyDeleteJune
DeleteCould've added the Sherman Firefly but you guys went for the Excelsior instead, yet another prototype. Plus, the British tech tree already has a premium heavy tank, so it really doesn't make sense adding another one when it's still missing a light tank and SPG.
ReplyDeleteIt gets worse with France, still no light or medium premium tank, while China is the worst, not one premium (and the Type 59/62 tanks don't count as they're not available in the store). Sigh...
As for 8.6, things just keep getting better, even more SPGs. Oh joy.
DeleteDoesn't mean more SPGs per battle
DeleteSacred Valley Map: Its beautiful but it reminds me of Province, everything is spawning on top of each other. I was spotted within 15 sec into match my arty was knocked soon after. Definately not a T10 map please make maps that r useful for all. To much like a bowlDragon Ridge Pearl River ?? please design maps that provide a combat experience for all tiers and whatever happened to 2k by 2k maps
ReplyDeleteARTY DAMAGE STILL NEEDS TO BE NERFFED!!! ! ! !
ReplyDeleteNo it doesn't. Look above at how arty actually perform. If arty pisses you off, remember, it probably took 4 of them to piss off 1 of you. A single arty is inconsequential, THAT is the problem.
DeleteHi Over, little offtopic: there are some rumors that on NA server best clans 'negotiated' who and when win M60 durring campagin event because they don't want fight each other. Maybe it's true, maybe just rumor, but how WG want to prevent that kind of unfair play?
ReplyDeleteAny more details on that?
Deleteunfortunately not (I heard about it somewhere on eu forum), so treat it like a rumor (maybe someone is just jealous or smth). I'm just curious does WG know about those rumors and how WG want to prevent unfair play (if someone will cheat).
DeleteNA server is the weakest in this respect, we can fight that with giving away m60 to a greater number of people. Eg if top x clans already have it, the next top x are getting it,
DeleteI have one major issue that some, but not a huge amount of people seem to have :
ReplyDeleteUnlike on 8.5, all the tank shadows aren't being drawn anymore. It's completely independent from settings. Environmental objects still have their shadows drawn. My graphics card is an ATI 6870. I would be pretty sad if that "improvement" would make it into the production version - it makes the game engine look very dated :(
Have you contacted support?
DeleteI actually wasn't aware of support catering to the test server. Anything I have to do in particular to file a test server ticket?
DeleteIndicate clearly that it's a test server. That should be enough.
DeleteArti: My arties seem to be moving half as well, reloading and gun dispersion nerf is very irritating. Accuracy did not seem to change too much.
ReplyDeleteWill be selling all my 4 beloved arties after 8.6 and buy a t10 ground tank.
Visibility:
Bushes seem to give too little camo, 15m bush trick seem to be nerfed (i am utterly disappointed because of this! Games are becoming more and more just hack and slash because of camo and camo trick nerfs.)
New damage: Seems to be ok, but reducing the base pen of some t10 guns to reduce te goldammo pen is just stupid. Reduce only gold pen for godness sake.
Sounds: Not bad, but i prefer 8.5 sounds.
Dynamic camera: Sweet, i am happy with it!
New map: Never got to play on it, rotation does not give me the new map, it seems great on videos.
Performance: Havent had trouble before, no idea.
Well arty is still laser accurate, and tiering has actually improved an artys chance of being top dog, and doing major alphastrikes. Ergo, nothing was really fixed or improved. Why is it Overlord that you all refuse to actually fix the issue.... The sheer amount of alpha damage, combined with a gods eye view space laser accuracy.
ReplyDeleteSure aimtime has made snapshots less of an issue. But it still doesnt matter, since accuracy is still DEAD on after the few seconds... And at higher tiers, you will ALWAYS cause damage, due to the fact if you dont him the tank directly, you WILL at least cause massive damage from the huge blast radius alone.
Plus you can literally hit tanks (ie especially selective tiered premiums) in 2 hits most. They never had to deal with as LARGE of alphastrike at a tier 8 premium, then they currently do in test server. I'm seriously just amazed such huge oversights have been made. Please watch Quickybabys arty review of 8.6....
Do you even play arty? The alpha damage IS NOT WORTH IT! It does not make arty competitive, read above at some real figures of arty's performance.
DeleteOh, and tier 8 tanks have to deal with tier 6 arty, which regularly get tier 8 games. All Russian tier 6 arty have 203mm guns that do 1850 potential damage(potential =/= actual) so any statement that says tier 8 tanks have never had to deal with high damage arty before is a blatant or ignorant lie. It was difficult for them to hit targets then, it's even more difficult now with longer aim times and minute long reloads. The only thing that's changed is now the Germans get their 210mm gun at tier 8, which has a longer reload and worse accuracy and aiming time than its Russian counterpart, with a marginal potential damage increase of 150 damage per shot.
DeleteSecondly, I agree with them improving lower tier arty. Try shooting at a kv-1 with a priest, it's horrible, you only hit one out of every 5-6 shots and then you're lucky to do anything over 50 damage. So attacking heavy tanks you only do about 60 damage per minute, that's bad considering the point of arty in this game is to attack heavy tanks. So, giving them slower firing guns with more alpha means they're less likely to waste a shot attacking the faster, smaller, harder to hit tanks, and their damage will be noticeable against heavy vehicles. The reasoning here is simple, arty mitigates the heavy advantage. I'm thinking WG is trying to loosen up the numbers of the storm of heavy tanks in games by making heavy tanks less rollface derpy to play. Welcome to where arty was about 2 years ago ;) oh wait.. no... it was balanced then, actually... Kinda unlike how low tier heavies... aren't balance right now... Sooooooo yeah, welcome to the club, enjoy your nerf bat beatdown as a heavy at low tier. This is WG actually responding to real numbers instead of whiners on the forum.
The meta hasn't changed for high tier games though... High tier arty are still there, in fact they're worse, and the high tier heavies are still the same... What needs to be nerfed at high tier is the medium tanks. That ROF needs to be dropped on some of those guns.
If you wana see a place where WG responded to the whiners, look at the JP E-100 and 215b-183. They're that far down on the list, well A: because the 183 is a gold ammo seller, and B: because high alpha makes people mad if they don't have it, even though they have high rate of fire, because they have to change their tactic when fighting high alpha vehicles and people just don't like doing that. Hiding behind a rock and popping out to shoot when you reload works so well, until there's a tank that can punish you for your hubris by making half your tank go away, when all you had to do was just stick your head up enough to goat them into taking the shot first, then you can take 1, 2 or 3 shots of your own against them.
Some good thoughts. However you are missing one point - heavies' gameplay, under normal conditions, is of little fun - it promotes little activity and "campering". At the same time, heavies are quite unforgiving, you have little room for error, you are slow, you have huge reloading time, etc. We don't want to push hard on heavies across all tiers. So the current situation with high tier meds having huge DPMs is for the sake of the game. And we might need somewhat similar on mid tiers as well
DeleteI would agree that mid tier mediums are underpowered and high tier heavies are underpowered, but at the same time you have to realize that high tier arty are also underpowered. A 6 second aim time and .7 accuracy works when your targets are usually as slow as a KV-1, but when they're faster and the players are smarter and you now have an 8 second aim time and .9 accuracy your gun just doesn't cut it anymore. With guns like that it's hard to be effective against anything but the largest targets, which is why the Maus experiences heavy rain. I actually believe you can make arty more balanced, and more of an active force in the game by simple reducing that aim time. The accuracy can stay the same, but with aim time as it is, the beg gunned arty and the O-261 with it's pencil thin gun traverse have a lot of trouble getting their guns from one side of the map to the other to react to threats.
DeleteNot to mention you forgot that arty gameplay in normal conditions is a soul sucking malaise of single shots costing you about as much as an entire pz2, and getting hit once costing more than the entire repair bill of a Maus. If arty have to deal with having to lob pz2's at the enemy for little effect, and getting scouted at the beginning of a game often leading to being 1 hit killed with 0 damage done, why on earth do they still perform the lowest of any other class of tank?
DeleteIf you're going to beat us to death at least give us money! I've had it with your game, and your team, Overlord. 8.6 was your change to make arty a viable and fun tank to play, you have failed miserably. If you have a soul in your body you will let us un-xp our arty and move onto something that you're not going to utterly demolish. You've nerfed arty for 6 straight patches, if you haven't "fixed" arty yet you're never going to, because you either can't or don't know how.
I put fixed in quotations there because fixed means 2 completely different things for 2 completely different people. For some people the only way to fix arty is to not have them because they think that nothing should be able to do major damage to their precious machines and they just don't like art. For other, more rational people, who play both arty and tanks, we realize that arty is a basic necessity of the game, that it's there to force movement and that being hit directly by a large arty is a rare thing and a sign that you should probably move.(I actually play far more tanks than I do arty, though I do have about 700 games in my T92, most of those were before you halved arty's income) The issue here is this, people like me are the voice of reason, we don't inflate numbers or scream or yell, we just tell you like we see it in the plainest words possible and stay, up to a point, humble in the process. On the other hand those who thing arty simply shouldn't exist are the voice of rage, they always yell, they always berate you, and they threaten to pick up and leave every time they get hit by an object 212. They are always very vocal because they are simply angry and unthinking.
Me, I waited quite some time, until I was actually mad to start posting. It took a lot to get me here. I won't go onto the forums because any time someone suggests that arty is getting nerfed too much the rage machines go apeshit with the negative rep. As someone who runs a game, it's not the considerations of those that always say something that you need to worry about, it's the considerations of those that rarely if ever say something, because it takes a real problem to get them to speak.
The only reason I've said as much as I have is because I still have hope, even though my faith in you and your company has been greatly diminished. I say what I say here only because that's what I truly believe will help. If you don't listen to the words of someone who really cares, then you don't deserve to be the one with your ears to the ground, and if you don't fix the obvious problems with the game, even though a very vocal group doesn't want it to be fixed, then you don't deserve to be running the game, and if my words don't convince you of what I think of your game all you need to do is pull up my payment history. My in game name is the same as my name here, Coldt.
If this game doesn't change, it's over for me, and as my garage slowly dwindles as I sell off tank after tank to pay for the repair bills of the tanks I actually enjoy playing, my time in game will be less frequent, and even the value of me as "free content" will decrease to nothing.
That's all I have to say for now. I hope you make the right choice, Dmitry.
~Sincerely, Mark Harding
Mark Harding,
Deleteyou wrote
"For other, more rational people, who play both arty and tanks, we realize that arty is a basic necessity of the game, that it's there to force movement and that being hit directly by a large arty is a rare thing and a sign that you should probably move."
First of all it is a nice (cough) move to credit (only) those people with rationality that share your opinion about arty. Now if you would just peel your eyes a bit in arty-heavy games you would see that the theory you have dreamt up so "rationally" couldn't be further from the truth, which is that arty turns dynamic, flowing tank battles into camp fests of the worst kind. This is an observation you can make in as good as any such match, and I really wonder how you can still come up with that "us rational players understand that arty is needed to keep tanks moving" bollox.
Then you don't know how to play, simple as that. The only way to stay alive in a high arty game is to push hard and keep moving from cover to cover. Have you ever even played clan wars?
DeleteIt is only when you bog down and arty has time to carefully aim and take its shots at will that it rips teams apart. Forgive me for being blunt, but the vast majority of players are too stupid and stuck in their ways to realize that.
DeleteYes a vast majority are idiots who sit... peek out... and die. If you play the AMX 40 you learn fast... NEVER STOP MOVING. Apparently the people playing the heavy's did not learn this in tank school. Also... Learn that SPGs fire on line of sight too. Which means know the map and know where an SPG is likely to be.
DeleteI have also seen games where 4 SPGs are reduced to 2 due to crappy support from the team or idiots in command of the SPGs. But... I have also seen, at T4 SPG, 4 SPGs with strong support from the team just rape, yes rape, the 15 man opposing team in 4m 53s. Its a bit rare to see this though. Usually the light, fast, tanks get through and kill the SPGs... Or at least spot them for their team.
NEMO.
So can I get a full research and credit refund for both my GW Type E and Obj 261?? An amnesty program of sorts, surrender your arty, gain something in return, limited time only!?!?
ReplyDeleteThat would be awesome and would probably make at least 50% of current arty players stop playing it...
DeleteHow about they give back the money I payed into the game, too?
Deletewith the current nerfs to arty it will stop arty players from playing I know I wont be playing them if I ever play this game again worst patch ever.
DeleteNo refunds, guys. These are not prem vehicles, right? The changes are needed for the sake of the entire game.
DeleteC'mon, Overlord! What should all the arty players do then? I mean, all the vehicles in the game are arties, right? :P
DeleteBalance is when everyone is suffering. SerB
DeleteIs there going to be any garage slot+new arty given for old arties that are being moved to another tier?
DeleteNo slots, just replacements.
DeleteAwesome, were these replacements announced somewhere or they're still under debate? I may have to buy some arties before the update, lol.
DeleteSo basically you guys are whinging that you dont want to play tanks in a game called World of Tanks.... interesting..
DeleteHow very naive that you only consider the changes from an arty point of view.
About (all) testing from my point of view.
ReplyDeleteI have no time for the following things:
1, download a whole new install set for testing
2, install a new instance of the game
3, playing on test server, instead doing some progress (gaining XP and credits) on the "live" server...
As I have only 1-2-3 hours for this game daily, I will never waste it for testing, except if I will get real (transferable) advance/bonus on the live server.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteIf so, why do you bother complaining about WG.net offering a sneak peek at all things to come? Due to the big number of "test samples" it offers, a big public test is the only way to catch many bugs in such a piece of software. You don't want 8.6 to go live w/o such a test, trust me.
DeletePersonally, I believe these tests are a good move by WG.net, and they do not just 'steal' my time - they also are an opportunity to get acquainted with new maps and tanks.
ShidenOne,
DeleteDont like it, dont do it. Thats easy. Tests are needed, otherwise we would not do them.
Overlord what a poor attitude!
DeletePlaying WoT can be painful sometimes, why undertake extra suffering on test server. Just kidding ;)
DeleteSmintar, the poor attitude is on Shidenone's side. Overlord is right.
Delete@karx11erx,
DeleteI only described, that I (personally) have no time or any advantage for doing any test. I never stated, that testing is unnecessary. Please read more carefully! :)
Shidenone,
DeleteYour hair splitting is a lame excuse for your initial comment, which will inevitably be interpreted as expressing a negative stance towards such a test, because if you really just personally didn't have time for all the things you mentioned, why did you waste your time to publicly lament about it?
@ karx11erx
DeleteIt's easy:
playing at home, publicing at work. ;)
Shidenone,
Deletethat's not the question. The question is: Why lament publicly about a personal issue? This will inevitably be interpreted as criticizing the entire test.
The new map looks very nice.
ReplyDeleteThere are no shadows at all anymore (improved renderer, all graphics settings at highest possible setting)
The arty still is OP. :P What I do not understand is why WG.net does not decrease the arty cap to 3 per team. That would even be a nice occasion for Serb to troll a bit again: He could tell all arty players whining about it to "either use the time to get some coffee or play a 'real' tank" ... :P
Because actually that would be the real deal. More than three arties per team make matches static in most instances. And please consider: Arty players are still outnumbered 1:3 or 1:4 by regular tank players - that makes it a bit hard to understand why WG.net is favoring arty players when it comes down to decisions about the arty hardcap.
The MM could also be modified to create arty + scout only games to satisfy excessive amounts of arty players trying to play simultaneously. Don't tell me that's not possible - the MM does more under the hood than most people suspect it to do.
You didn't touch experience required to upgrade skills and it is still insane (for example player need +-75000 experience points to move from 99% of 4th to 100%). In good, old times crews with 2 additional perks unlocked was ready to fight (firefighting was quite useless). Training to that level was doable quite fast, so even new players (or players who played significantly less) were encouraged to have a lot of vehicles. Now some roles on vehicles requires 3-5 "must-have" skills and perks (especially crews from medium tanks need a lot) before they are ready to battle in for example CWs/ESL/etc. Today having 4-5 additional skills is almost impossible for average player.
ReplyDeleteI understand why devs do not like linear requirement for next perks but reducing some XP requirements should be done. For example, imho training to 4th additional perks in future should require less than to 3rd now.
I'm not sure I agree with what you're doing with artillery. You are turning the role into a RNG based role which will not translate well into e-sport. The idea of e-sport is to reduce RNG, not increase it.
ReplyDeleteI also believe that the majority of complaints about arti is because of the huge alpha. No one takes the perspective that it took 3 shots for the arti to hit you once for 900 damage. People only see that they got hit 1 time for 900 damage and taken down to 10% health from that OP arti hit.
I think the one solution to this is to reduce the damage do on the front end. but increase the splash damage to make the damage more reliable.
In the same scenario above. If that same player got splashed 3 times for 300 damage each, you would see much less raging and nerf arti threads. This will also move arti back to the role of flushing out hard turtle camps and promote a more fluid game play and take much of the RNG out of the arti role.
I think you are right on the spot.
Deleteone other thing I think that can add is to cap no more than 3 even now with 5 cap its still to many
DeleteI agree with this person 100%, WG will see a decline in player base when 8.6 launches. The hardest thing after that is trying to get back the players that do leave.
Delete8.6 is the worst patch WG has done, hands down. I am an arty player, and I do not think that arty is overpowered. My contribution to a game is directly dependent on the idiocy (or absence thereof) of the tank drivers in both teams, and I rarely have a huge impact on the outcome of a match. But a lot of players complain about arty, so let's assume that it is a problem. The majority of the whining comes from being one shotted by arty.
ReplyDeleteAnd what does WG do?
- do not change arty shell damage, therefore do not affect alpha damage
- allow arties to be top tiers, so increase alpha damage tremendously and increasing the occurrence of one shotting
- increase aim time, making time less fun to play for skilled players and having no effect on play of fail players, while not affecting alpha damage (only damage per minute)
- increase reload time, dumbing down arty play and still not affecting alpha damage (only damage per minute)
- increase shell flight time, dumbing down arty play, not affecting alpha damage.
So arty becomes hugely boring to play, all the while retaining huge alpha damage potential.
It is quite obvious from patch 8.6 that WG wants to address arty problems, but has absolutely no idea how to proceed. They are using a huge nerf bat which will dumb down arty play for a skilled player, but is not addressing the root problems.
Truly bad, truly horrible, I really think I deserve a refund for my arties.
I am tanks and TD's player. I think that arty is OP like hell and that it is most unrealistic thing in WoT and biggest fun spoiler. I like 0.8.6 a lot, cause maybe finally - after almost a year - there will be again reason to take tier IX and X tanks from my garage. If this patch will fail in removing arty parties from top tiers, I will probably sell all my X and IX tier vehicles (so far I sold only T110E4).
DeleteIf I was WoT designer I would removed all SPG's from the game.
Why do you dislike arty? Is it because you hate being one shotted and critted? Well then tough luck, because this patch does not change that.
DeleteWell, it might be sufficient to set the arty hard cap to three per team and significantly decrease the alpha damage they can do (maybe simply by taking away heat ammo from them).
DeleteSeriously Overlord. Do you guys have any hopes of making arty a good gameplay design? No skill, no risk but high reward. Do you honestly feel it is OK?
ReplyDeleteYou should have stopped at the Hummel or GW-Panther. These high alpha arty brings a lot of problems with them, and the high alpha itself is the least of the problems.
An indirect fire vehicle that achieves 40-50% hit rate is too much.... and these are the extremly high damaging direct hits. No tank achieve that.
Yes, the spall liner reduces damage a bit, but no one uses that because it doesn't prevent critical damages, the biggest problem with arty. Plus, only very few tanks can benefit from it, but to do so, they must drop some other valuable equipment.
Zlobny thinks arty wasn't nerfed enough. You should all do as he says.... or just remove it or gives us a damn opt arty out button.
Know that Zlobny thinks that, however arty is needed to counter heavies. And his task is to ensure it is so in-game. More heavies - more slow and trench gameplay. Less arty - more heavy tanks dominance, especially in mid tiers.
DeleteDo not forget that for some of WoT players, it is the play style of arty why they primarily play the game. If arty is nerfed into the ground, that play style is removed from the game and those players will leave.
DeleteIn other words, status quo does not lead to WoT losing players. Nerfing arty into the ground might, because it removes one complete play style from the game.
@wot-hr
DeleteI am deeply sorry, but if all people, who love such "playstyle" (sitting in bush and using satellite view to spoil others fun), will leave the game it will be better for WoT. I'm sorry if you don't like my honesty.
Alas, after a few dozens of battles on testserver I am more and more worried that SPG's are still too strong. I have seen Su-8 who made 4 oneshots with just 4 shots. Victims were tier V and VI tanks. He was just sitting in bush and killing one after another... Playstyle...
You are completely right, Dead Skin Mask. This is exactly what I was writing about in my post. Read it again.
Delete@ Overlord
DeleteWhat is all this "We need arty to counter heavies" all the time?
Not only are heavies great to counter heavies, supported by flanking mediums, but we also have very powerfull and now
also very accurate tank destroyers! Why does everybody think that a heavy would just drive in a straight line to the base and win, if no arty was present??!!? The Chinese top medium even has a more powerfull gun than the Chinese top heavy!
Overlord, I would expect that answer from a 45% player. That idea could make a little sense back in the beta days, when the only tier X heavies were the Maus and the IS-7, while the top mediums were the already overpowered T-54 and the extremely bad Panther II (and the Pershing). The highest damaging arty was the GW-Tiger. Back then, you could say that heavies could dominate.
DeleteSince then, the game changed a lot. We mediums with more DPM and penetration than heavy tanks and TD with 1000+ dmg guns and 450mm of penetration. Heavies don't dominate the battles, and never assume everyone likes to play heavies only.
Arty is a counter to everything, especially map usage and flanking maneuvers. No surprise you guys design larger maps full of details and useless covers but the battles happens on the same places everytime.
By the way, the rare arty free battles are not dominated by heavies, and guess what? They are fun, instead of these boring and frustating campfest promoted by arty.
No, arty is not needed to counter heavies. TD and mediums does that just fine. What arty is really needed is to go away and never come back.
100% agree with Warstone, Snortsch and others. Best games - with lot's of flanking etc. are done only where thre is no arty. But WG has closed eyes and they just repeat the mantra "we need arty".
DeleteLie repeated 1000 times will not become true.
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DeleteI agree with all the counter arguments here, Overlord. On top of that I do wonder whether you have played any high tier heavy tank in WoT during the last year. What you are saying about heavy tank tactics is exactly what happens when there is a lot of artillery in the game, because it forces the rather slow heavies to stay arty safe and take an occasional pot shot at enemy tanks (heavies), always hoping arty will not have its satellite view directed at it and its gun ready to fire - because if it does, its shell will hit right a tenth of a second before you have fully aimed. I recently played an arty-less tier 10 game on Redshire with a T110E3 (Redshire is a very bad camper map when arty is present there), and the game was a blast. I didn't have to hide on that hill in the south-east of the map and hope arty wouldn't splash me to death there - instead I could roll out even with that rather slow, sluggish and big TD and we had a great game. Unfortunately, this was an extremely rare experience. I absolutely cannot understand why the game designers at Wargaming.net so stubbornly and thickheadedly refuse to do something substantial about arty instead of their half assedly mucking around with it.
DeleteWargaming.net should learn from EVE Online how to integrate a gaming community in the game design process in a good and constructive way: Players there form/elect a Council which meets with the EVE staff once a year and discusses game changes and player wishes with them. The result is a game thriving for years, with a growing community. EVE online is going for sustainability - Wargaming.net is not; Instead they seem to be relying on bringing in ever new players and milk them a bit before most of them turn the back on a game that has too many contradictions and too many frustrating elements in its design (and on top of it does not even offer a manual that would come even remotely close to really helping players to get into the game or just all the UI functions and possibilities). This is even harder to understand as most game changes and additions are targetted at the long term players (you wouldn't need to bring in one new tank line after another to pull new players into the game - you need these to keep players from leaving the game who already have all high tier tanks). So why the heck are you refusing to cater to these people and to listen to them? I am not saying every proposition and wish coming from them is good or perfect, but there are a lot of ideas that are worth considering, polishing and working into the game. Wargaming.net's community handling is short sighted and unintelligent. Please don't use the huge number of trolls or people not interested or capable in taking part in fruitful design discussions as an excuse: There are enough competent und enthusiastic people on the game forums that could help in bringing this game further.
I will not even start about the outdated and performance hampered game engine here ...
I totally agree with you! :)
DeleteGameplay without arty:
Fast and funny. You can shoot back response fire against direct fire.
Gameplay with arty:
Slow and boring. You are not able to shoot back when you receive indirect fire, but you have to hiding behind a big rock/building to avoid it.
SPGs are fun as hell. You really have to look at what is happening on the minimap all the time to play them well. Failure to do so means a shell in your rear end or side and you die in 2 shells or less. T57 can take about 3-4 if done correctly. You cannot, with a 50% crew, just park and fire you do have to move to hit the target (8.5). To live when playing an SPG you have to move, its a given. Sometimes a lot (up to 1.5k on dorff due to many things that happened). You do not always have a good line of sight to fire, thus, you MUST move. I like TDs as well as the next guy since I do play TD as well as SPG. If they kept the AIM time of 8.5 in 8.6 you guys would still complain about SPG.
DeleteThe new German T2 has a 27s reload timer and 780m range with 50% crew. Yet I suppose it is still too OP for you to be able to handle it. I have not even added in the 7s or so AIM time. If a heavy or anything else cant deal with that then I will send you back to tank school with my 105mm shell.
NEMO.
Emmm. I understand nerfing arty because most people hate arty in any form. I really understand that. Punishing people playing "easy" vehicles. What I do not understand is the way the tree extension is handled. I have M40/43 I have to research gun and T92 which is 361k xp. After the patch I will have to grind 610 k xp to get from M40 to T92. Please do not treat someone who wants to finish all branches like that.
ReplyDeleteLately it seems like WG is punishing or allowing the cry babies to set the game parameters. Having played the WOT game for a little over two years it is starting to remind me of other MMO's that are over regulated by the aspect of people whining on the forums or in other formats. I can't tell you how many times I have been one shotted by Arty. I feel this is a possibility in real combat. And I do have experience in combat.
ReplyDeleteI think that the game managers lost their spine by caving in to this. If arty was capped at 3 , only for the purpose of platoons. It would still be a very enjoyable game. I have personally invested a glob of money and I don't like the way the game is going. For example, I buy a premium tank with real money cause it's not allowed in the game mechanics to buy with in game currency. Next thing you know it get slammed with the nerf bat, almost akin to driving a flaming piece of shit used car of the lot.
WG seems to have invested a lot of time and effort in as close to reality with specifics and such. Yet nowhere do I see the guns in the game having actual velocity to reality, ie.... like the some of the tanks that lob shells like eggs. Some WWII guns had a FPS of 3200 Feet per second. I have played 3 MMO in the last 10 years. I can see this band-aid on a bullet hole driving me away from this one to a new one sooner than not.
Keep your reality bollox to yourself. This is an arcade game, and arty just ruins it - particularly for high tier tanks. With the new arties I am afraid that will become a common experience on lower tiers now, too.
DeleteHow can you possibly say that WG caters to the mass moans on the forums, EVERYONE including the arty players have been saying the 2-3 hard cap was the way ahead, and what did they do, add more arty.
DeleteThey don't listen at all and do what they want, im not sure if they even take into account anything that the players want, its a case of it Serbs train set and he is Boss, mine mine mine.
Thats the continuing impression i get.
8.6 is a great step in the right direction for artillery; it's my hope that light tanks can eventually see some of the same treatment - especially in terms of matchmaking brackets. Naturally it may be difficult to have LT branches that span the whole range from tier 1-10, but nevertheless I'd really appreciate seeing them get more sensible matchmaking.
ReplyDeleteI understand the need for high-tier scouts/anti-SPG vehicles, but as it stands, LT MM brackets are really kind of a mess. A vast majority of the tier-4 "scout" LT are very ill-suited to the higher tier battles they encounter, and the Chaffee and T-50-2 remain problematic issues of their own. The Chaffee in particular remains a relic of the old 'top-tier' tier-5 LTs, with pretty much the widest MM bracket in the game, up to the highest battle tiers, and is out-done by most of the higher tech tree LT while still retaining extremely expensive repair costs comparable to a tier 8 vehicle.
For example, in direct comparison, the Chaffee is completely inferior to the T71 and WZ-131/132 LT.
Light tanks aside, I want to talk more about artillery: Like I said, it's a step in the right direction, filling out the tiers up to 10 and making the research costs and MM brackets "normal"; this is all fine and good. As well, I very much appreciate WG taking the initiative to drastically reduce artillery accuracy and aim time across the board.
My main fear is, though, that it won't be enough. Considering the re-organization of tiers and that SPGs now seem to have normal matchmaking brackets, it seems that some of the more powerful artillery guns are going to be seen at even lower tiers than they were before.
For example, take the M12: As a tier 6 SPG in 8.5, the M12's matchmaking bracket allows it to enter battletiers 9 and 10.
But as a tier 7 SPG in 8.6 - assuming it will have the same matchmaking bracket as other tier 7 vehicles - it will now be able to get into matches with those tier 7 vehicles. And it still has a top gun that does 1250 damage; in fact, most tier 7 SPGS in 8.6 have an average damage in that ballpark. That in and of itself is quite worrisome.
My hope is that WG is looking VERY closely at what kind of matches artillery will be placed in, comparatively between 8.5 and 8.6. Right now it seems that even though they're getting nerfed, they are effectively getting tiered DOWN, not up.
Addendum:
DeleteI really like the sharpened up accuracy of direct-fire vehicles, that is a lovely change. As well, I am a huge fan of the new dynamic camera. It's made maneuver gameplay much less frustrating, and lets a MT/LT player like me react much more quickly.
Yea, because AwfulPanther is a great scout, being end of branch...
DeleteGoing offtopic, on AwfulPanther ;) scheme: instead of trying some small random buffs (which were scheduled but now delayed/discarded?), what this tank needs is a radical base viewrange buff (like 430-420m) to counter its huge silhouette and sub-par camo value (other scouts don't have this problem) because tanks it go against are more stealthy (size/camo/both) AND have better viewrange (right up to 420m) - and they are not scouts(!).
Coated optics is just not enough - only after getting camo skill on all crew in addition to that, i stopped being spotted before spotting anybody (in a scout, right?) and that's quite a few battles to grind, but this tank still doesn't cut as scout.
Binocs+camo net combo doesn't work for this tank (and i play several other tanks with this set, including vk2801) - it gets instaspotted when starts moving, lacks mobility to retreat (even with offroad driving) and is a huge target (because of these two it's not even valid suicide scout, being instantly executed before spotting anything - if anybody wants to do try stupid tactic); this tank just need to stay mobile to live (as mobile as it can).
Summary:
1. Mobility: good for medium, bad for a huge scout
2. Gun: it's a scout, so it doesn't matter, but:
a: Alpha: nonexistant
b: Penetration: standard good for side/backshooting only, but not enough mobility&stealthness to outflank successfully; premium good and relatively cheap but still expensive
c: Accuracy: on-par only
d: DPM: can't protect itself with a gun because of a&b, so why ask? As gun goes, this tank is a scavenger, not a hunter.
3. Silhouette: huge as a barn, easier to hit than a barn
4. Camo/stealthness: sub-par
5. Viewrange: sub-par
TL;DR: Out of all these easiest to buff is viewrange, and most needed too as a single buff.
Overlord, could you please answer what you think of that :) ?
Hi Overlord, i dont like arty and thats why i started to play them (got killed by art a lot). just an idea how i would deal with arty-problem, lower the splash not the radius of splash (maybe the HE alpha nefr would do it), higher reloading times, aiming times at it is in 0.8.5, nefr the pen of HE shells to half, nefr to some point the dmg of direct hits with HE (basically lower HE alpha dmg). so the game play wont change that much if at all and the RNG wont make you kill yourself when you play arty. that my five cents
ReplyDeleteVincent, shrinking of aiming circle is non-linear already for all vehicles (big circle shrinks faster, small circle shrinks slower).
ReplyDeleteBad modification ever.
ReplyDeleteI left my team and I stop it.
And why? arty is useless
and character
murder
for many types of tanks
which I have a lot of time and money inserted.
WOT will be a monotonous arcade game fun for U.S.
But for the Eu games hold more content and each tank
character which is now lost
I do not give a penny more to WOT and many others.
Well for once its nice to see tier 10 heavys on battlefiled, cose arty were op and overplayed.
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ReplyDeleteCan you explain to me why LOWE wich is the most expensive premium vehicle is worst then type 59 and T34 ? Thank you.
ReplyDelete