Purpose of this blog

Dmitry Yudo aka Overlord, jack of all trades
David Lister aka Listy, Freelancer and Volunteer

Wednesday, September 5, 2012

[WoT] Misc Info. Updated

Updated. Added stuff in red. 

This post contains some misc information of World of Tanks.

Penetration mechanics is one of the hottest topics in WoT. Below is the summary of the most widely asked questions with answers, of course. :)


AP and APCR penetration and normalization:
  • There is no normalization when hitting external modules - tracks and gun.
  • Rounds ignore the armour slope when hitting external modules - tracks and gun.
  • Rounds get normalized only when hitting main armour or spaced armour
  • Normalization doesn't change the real round trajectory. This simplifies the calculation.
  • Normalization is taken into account to calculate penetration / non-penetration at the point of impact (where round meets armour).
  • If round penetrates the outer spaced armour and after that penetrates the inner main armour, it doesn't get normalized twice on the main armour. In both cases, when penetrating spaced armour - regular normalization value is used, for main armour - the same one is in place (no xN increase). The real round trajectory again stays the same for both penetrations. 
  • Normaliztion value for all rounds will be substantilly decreased in 8.0 update: approx it will go down from 7 deg (on average) to 5 deg (on average).
  • Ricochet angle is 70 deg. 
  • Overmatch is the situation when round caliber is 3+ times bigger than armour. In this case, there is no ricochet. Round tries penetrate the armour regardless of the angle.
  • After the ricochet, round changes its trajectory and continues its journey. Its penetration power is reduced by 25%. Only 1 ricochet is calculated by the server.
  • Semi-overmatch is the situation when round caliber is 2+ times bigger than armour. In this case, normalization is increased proportionally to the semi-overmatch value, ie x2, x3, xN.

Saving throws and gun hits:
  • Being inside the vehicle round can go as long as 10-caliber distance inflicting damage to modules and crew.
  • If module/crew is lucky to get saving throw, round doesn't go further
  • If module/crew doesn't produce saving throw, round goes further having its damage reduced by the amount of HP module/crew had. If the remaining damage is <= 0, round doesn't go further (it gets stuck)
  • Gun also has saving throw, but if it dodges, round goes further. However if round has penetrated the armour and inflicted damage before hitting the gun / gun dodging, it won't go further
  • When gun (gun hitbox) is penetrated (2 outer spots of the model hit), round gets its penetration reduced accordingly
  • Crew members don't stop AP rounds under any circumstances

Publicly available hitboxes

It is planned to display hitboxes (without internal stuff) in the game client, specifically in hangar submenu. Clicking on a particular spot, one will get its exact armour thickness and possibly angle of possible impact (based on camera angle) - thus it will be more clear what and where you can penetrate and when you have little chance.

Voiceover
The current algorithm (or sequence) of hit and penetration messages will be reconsidered. Yes, "we are on fire" shouts will finally get higher priority. Additional sounds will be added when hitting tracks or gun. ETA - soon! :)


PS. Latest poll results (votes / %):
Your opinion on "Digging Through Archives" posts.

keep them coming!  - 866 (50%) - sure thing, will do!
propaganda! - 371 (21%) - come on! :)  
don't care  - 333 (19%) - that's the right approach
let them be - 153 (8%) - see above
 
The new poll is up.

71 comments:

  1. Nice, finally the on fire message is getting sorted out!

    ReplyDelete
  2. Nothing new (about the info)
    But i'm glad to hear that we will be able to see the hitboxes at game client and not opening the models in Primitives viewer every time to learn each tank's hitboxes ..

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Now the red stuff gives me some new info :D

      Delete
  3. Good news about fire... It's so retarded to hear: Driver dead, tracks down, engine damaged, hydralics are leaking, forecast for tomorrow says rain, you got mail, gratz on your birthday and btw - WE'RE ON FIRE!!

    About the ammo should you have mentioned HEAT and other types as well?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. HE and HEAT have no normalization whatsoever.

      Delete
  4. What about HE penetration? Does it take into account armor slope?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. For initial penetration of the armour slope is taken into account for both HE and HEAT. HE can inflict damage even if there was no penetration at all.

      Delete
  5. What does this "on average" means Overlord?
    SerB told community some time ago normalisation for AP is 8 degrees.
    Now you're writing about "7 deg (on average)". Where does 7 degrees came from? Is it an average out of different kinds of ammo, or just "average" for AP - in this case, does normalisation differ between 1 gun to another?

    Thank you in advance for your response.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Normalization can slightly differ (+/-1%) based on the caliber, so it's not 7% or 8% plain for all shells.

      Delete
    2. Is the normalisation data for all guns ever going to be published?
      Because player can't really tell if he has a good chance of penetrating the armor with his gun or not without knowing normalisation numbers. While 1 degree is not a lot, this small difference is sometimes quite important.
      F.e. it would be nice knowing if BL9 has the same normalisation as 105L68 etc. - it would also help players choose their tanks - "this one has less penetration, but works better vs sloped armor" - something like this.

      Delete
    3. I think, it's quite possible in future.

      Delete
  6. The normalisation will affect some tanks more than others, have there been any testing don already? I fear you will get flamed a bit because it will benefit the russian armor quit a bit, more than the germans, since a lot of the russian tanks have some sloping on the side to, espesialy the is4 and is7's.

    I'm waiting to see and test before giving a verdict, i know you try to improve and balance the game, i just sometimes feels the consequences hasn't allways been thought through properly. Refering a bit to the e100 buff in 7.5 (the rof nerf made it feel like a overall nerf, get on lose two situation.)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Testing is being carried out at the moment. Btw, E100 has 60deg front armour slope.

      Delete
    2. And that front plate is already impenetrable in 0.7.5, so nothing changes.
      The problem is the lower plate, which has only 50 degree angle, so it benefits only a little from the changes to normalisation. Much less than IS4 f.e. which has very small LFP, so is most often hit in the UFP, which is 140 at 29 degrees from horizontal (with 4 degrees normalisation it's 257mm, with 8 degrees - only 232 - huge difference).

      Delete
    3. Well, on my e-100 i try to angel my front armor to improve the effect of the armor in the lower frontplate. But when angeling like 30 degrees the tier x guns shoot an pen me in the corner over the tracks, (it thought this was spaced armor or something as i read that it absorbe splash damage) and they get full damage hits on me.

      Delete
  7. You are doing great overlord, better than before, keep making good chances to differentiate the good players with players with luck

    ReplyDelete
  8. One thing I'd like to see is having multiple shouts at once. It feels odd that only one person is telling my the damage in a list, I'd rather have the driver screaming he's been hit and the loader yelling about the fire breaking out at the same time. This would solve the fire reporting problem and streamline information a bit more. Of course there would be a limit so every crewman isn't yelling different things at once, but 2 reports overlapping slightly would be much quicker, although not at the exact same time.

    ReplyDelete
  9. OL what about IS 3 armour? Why its so lame with slopes in front? Ok, i know only 110 mm but is7 nas not as much more and its 100% better

    ReplyDelete
  10. Displaying hitboxes in hangar is very nice thing, but I think it would be better if You could make hitboxes available in tech tree for example, so every player can see them, not just ones who actually have some particular tank in garage.Only then newcomers will know where to shoot those higher tier tanks(they still don't own) and which they fear most.
    Thanks

    ReplyDelete
  11. Replies
    1. So how much HP one crew member have?:)

      Delete
    2. If not much so how he can eat 155 mm shell doing on average 850 dmg?

      Delete
    3. Must be some really fat bastard!!!

      Delete
  12. The thing with the hitboxes is really awesome.
    1. This will come in 8.0 too? or in a later patch?
    2. What if i don't have the maus in my garage, can i still view the hitbox for the maus with the thickness of the armor? Or i have to buy the tank so i can check that

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 1. later.

      2. will think of it, it might be a good incentive to make players research / buy / keep tanks :)

      Delete
    2. Plz don't force us to buy and keep tanks in order to see their weakspots... This would be a huge disadvantage especially for new players.

      Delete
    3. Another proposal for this problem of getting to know hitboxes of not owned tanks: What about a "Tankpedia" with turnable 3D-Models? Maybe like it was in the Mafia games for the cars ....

      Delete
  13. One thing according penetration and ricochet mechanics.
    Is there any chance that they would be applyed to small destroyable objects like wooden or stone fances ?

    Becouse right now they are 100% dmg proof shields and need to be destroy before U can make a clear shoot with pen chance.

    It would be nice if they had a chance to stop some of the penetration power like ~5% for wooden and ~15% for stone.
    It wont hurt that much vs one shoot that u need to waste with current mechanics.

    ReplyDelete
  14. BTW Overlord
    SERB & STORM are sayin that everything is ok with IS7 but is there any chance that it would get some slight buff to gun depertment ??

    Its really outdated ...
    Slight aiming time reduction to 3.0 sec, and maybe acc of 0.39 wont make it superior but will make this tank less random like and luckbased tank that it is now.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. IS-7 seems to be ok balance-wise, doubt that any changes are planned to it.

      Delete
    2. with the new armour in 0.8 I think it will be fine, a stronger armour with poor accuracy, it is fair for me

      Delete
    3. @ butcher

      U just prove to be a complete ignorat.
      U bother enought to post reply but not enought to get a clue.

      If u didnt get it till now every tank is more or lest about gun.
      Even the really good and balanced one with bad gun will be considered as a rubbish ( just look at e100/t43 )

      The point is to SLIGHTLY change s70 stats to be less random and more user friendly.
      Aim time of 3.43s is the longest of all tier tanks spread.
      Could be god for some powerfull cannon on tier 5-8 but for a X its just a pain in the butt.
      Second slowest is AMX 50B with 3.0 ( suposed to be buffed in near future ) and then comes germans with 2.86.
      On the other hand we have T110 with stunning 2.0s.
      And believe me such a big spread is radiculus at X tier.
      In my opinion 3.0s aim time is the border of ridiculousness.

      Samge goes for accuracy with can make ure fully aimed shot just go mad and u can say that sometimes even a moon isnt to big target.
      I really can feel a difference between 0.38 and 0.39 not to mention 0.4 whitch only exists on two tier X cannons ( e100 @ 15 / is-7 ).

      I wish they could ballance this tank in some other way than whith the longes aiming time and worst accuracy :/

      Delete
    4. for me the is7 is fine, with better armour and better cannon will be too op, and I dont want heard noobs claming nerfs or russian bias, by the way I have 62% winrate in 1200 battles and I am under the best 300 of this game, I am not a ignorant ;)

      Delete
  15. Publicly available hitboxes...

    Hurrah x3.

    Lh.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Thx for really fast answers
    To dont abuse U 3rd and last question from me :)

    Do U plan to make another stage of physics preview test ?? or it will go stright to the common test ??
    And if u can share some aprox time of this happening in weeks ofc..
    So like 1-2 or 3-4 ??

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Most likely next physics test will be combined with regular public test.

      Delete
  17. So how does it work, that suspensions can entirely absorb shell damage without getting destroyed?

    ReplyDelete
  18. "Publicly available hitboxes

    It is planned to display hitboxes (without internal stuff) in the game client, specifically in hangar submenu. Clicking on a particular spot, one will get its exact armour thickness and possibly angle of possible impact (based on camera angle) - thus it will be more clear what and where you can penetrate and when you have little chance."


    EXACTLY this i suggested for like... half a year ago. May this been me starting all this about hiboxes? :D

    ReplyDelete
  19. Apropos shouting, has anyone played Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory? There are these, imo, cool build-in quick voice-chat messages that you can shout by pressing hotkeys and your or the enemy team can hear them.
    For example, "Fire in the hole", "Cover me" etc. I find these very helpful and also sometimes hilarious, because there are many custom made voice chats (MODs).
    I know there are some voice messages already build into WOT but I find them rather limited.
    Can we hope for a extension of these? Why not take the voice chats from Wolfenstein ;P ?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Than 12yr kids can randomly spam with shouting every 2 seconds like they did with pinging on mimimap.

      Delete
    2. Or turn on their favourite music. For all.

      Delete
    3. That shouldn't be a problem with a cooldown/max-shouts-per-sec timer.

      Delete
  20. Is there any chance that german high tier guns will get (at least a slight) penetration buff?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. As long as the soviet brainwashed SerB and Storm stay as the studio leads nothing will change,expect the german tank getting shittier and shittier with each passing patch. example in 8.0 they will nerf the only tier 5 tank that was a real threat to the "Mighty Soviet Wonder Weapon",the KV-1, also expect the insanely under powered 88mm/L56 to finally become obsolete(guess all those historians and military experts were totally wrong saying that the 88mm was a wunderbar tank gun...oh well) and i dont want to even think what will happen to the barely useful 128mm/L55 and 150mm/L38

      Delete
  21. Fire messages taking priority... best news I've read in some time.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Let's say an ISU 152 hits a Panther frontally in the turret.
    So is it more like

    a) Shell penetrates and instantly does its damage, then proceeds to hit the gunner for example, which can resist but won't stop the shell, which then travels to the ammorack and has the chance to damage it.

    or

    b) Shell penetrates the turret, porceeds to gunner which resists, and hits the ammorack without doing any damage until now. Then it is calculated wether the ammorack resists or not, and if it does the shot won't do any damage.

    I hope it's more like a), because it would make way more sense, be more fair and would basicially eliminate 0 DMG hits.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Overlord, are you absolutely sure it's gun caliber and not gun penetration that decides about overmatch mechanics?

    Because if it's gun caliber, then we'll see a ton of bounces from very weak armor at 70 degrees. F.e. BatChat will now bounce 105mm, 268mm penetration shells with the angled UFP when effective angle will reach 70 degrees, even though from mathematical point of view it should go through anyway?
    Isn't the ricochet angle a bit too high? 75 degrees would make more sense.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes its caliber , not pen. Batchat is nicely sloped thus effective armour is good enough so as to bounce shells in some cases.

      Delete
    2. The problem is, now almost paper armor at 20 degrees will bounce T10 guns.
      Angled 60mm vs 120mm gun of T110? Bounce.
      And the benefit from having side armor from 60 to 100 will be basically 0 at T10, because almost every tank has 260+ penetration, so only those with 120+ will get a few additional semi-safe degrees of angling.
      Panther II's 60mm side will be absolutely safe vs BL10 286 penetration at 20 degrees. Now E75 has 120mm side and... yes, it will be safe up to exactly same angle, maybe will get 2-3 bonus degrees. It sounds a bit ridiculous, that both T9 heavy tank and Panther II can angle up to exactly same angle vs BL10.
      I can see much benefit from having 100 or 120mm sides over 76mm sides of T110, because there is almost no difference between autobounce and "properly angled", the benefit is simply not there.

      I hope dev team will reconsider this idea, 15 degrees of autobounce would make sense, 20 is just taking away the benefit of 90-100mm sides over 60-80mm side armor on T9/10.



      Delete
  24. @ szturmi
    the higher the hp damage the lower the module damage of a gun.
    example:
    is-7 trying to ammo rack five is-7 vs e-50 trying to ammo rack five is-7.
    e-50 will do the job much faster.

    ReplyDelete
  25. @overlord:

    very very nice information. thx very mutch for this. But i do have one more question about module damage if i may:
    for example lets take the E50:
    the ammo rack has 220 hp, but most guns of enemys do clearly more then that damage. so if it doesnt gets the saving throw, it should be destroyed completly as the enemy shell damage should be clearly high enough to blast it in destruction. But module destruction (no crew) with one hit rarely happens. So, how much does the shell's damage potential gets reduced and by what? My gues is that it has something to do with the armor it has to pen first. Is that correct? and if so, by how much?

    thx very much in advance!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You see, the thing is that each round has two values damage to tank and damage to modules. The latter is hidden and differs from the first value which can produce some misunderstanding.

      Delete
    2. ah, now i see.
      many thanks for this enlightement

      Delete
    3. hmmm cant find it yet but i gues it must be a variable as well or a fixed factor wich is multiplied on the damage to the vehicle, thus creating a variable as well?

      Delete
    4. my guess is, that every gun has a its own module damage value(+-25%).
      I also recommend this test video:
      www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iKAc-kiJUng

      Delete
    5. it is a very nice test video, sadly tough i dont understand russian, but i could make some stuff up out of the images.

      Delete
  26. I have two questions:

    1) Was all the (old) info about penetration (not caliber) having an overmatch effect incorrect?
    2) Does 3x caliber overmatch to armor mean "Any angle will always penetrate if caliber is triple the armor"?

    Sorry to ask about 2) but I just want to make sure since the above statement is not conclusive.

    Thank you kindly for your reply.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 2) Does 3x caliber overmatch to armor mean "Any angle will always penetrate if caliber is triple the armor"?

      no, it means that the shell won't ricochet because of a high angle of impact, it can still occur that the effective angled armor is higher than the shell's penetration and the shell won't penetrate the armor then.

      Delete
  27. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Overlord, as to spaced armor/main armor penetration mechanics - are you saying the round normalizes on the spaced armor, but then does not normalize at all on the hull armor behind, or are you saying it normalizes each time, separately on the spaced armor and then on the main armor?

    Because this dramatically changes how thick armor is on say an IS-3, going from 212mm thick when only normalizing on the spaced armor to only 178mm thick when normalizing on both, separately.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Overlord, some queustions:
    1) you state that tracks do not have normalization. ¿what happens to a shell if the trajectory hits the track(penetrates) and then the side armor behind the tracks?, ¿does it get 0 normalization?, ¿or the normalization calculation takes place in the point of contact with the main hull?
    2) ¿how much penetration % does a shell loses when hitting a track?(i.e., when saving throw succeeds and when it fails),because sometimes i get track destroyed and no HP dmg, other i get both, other i get track dmg and take HP dmg
    3) i don't understand the following:
    "If module/crew is lucky to get saving throw, round doesn't go further" and then you say: "
    Crew members don't stop AP rounds under any circumstances"
    ¿isn't that a contradiction?, you say that if the crew get a saving, the round gets stopped, then you add that the crew NEVER stops an AP round... ¿which one is it?

    ReplyDelete
  30. Does normalization apply to slopes only, or to angles too? Will a box like the Tiger benefit from this change when it is angling its armor heavily? Will it make angling a KV-4 with its heavy side armor even more protected at the side?

    ReplyDelete