Purpose of this blog

Dmitry Yudo aka Overlord, jack of all trades
David Lister aka Listy, Freelancer and Volunteer

Friday, August 31, 2012

[WoWP] German Bias

Soviet bias! From Russian devs to Russian players! etc 

Those are often heard in WoT. Tank performance stats are know made public thanks to community efforts, while aerial data are still unknown for many.

I have taken a brief look at the current performance charts of World of Warplanes 0.3.2 beta, and am completely astonished now.

Just have a look at this

Soviet bias has fully gone and there is a strong German bias instead. Among top 20 performers we have got 11 jerries and 6 yanks, while only 3 ruskies (and LA-15 is not at all representative here!!!).

On a seriuos note, at this early stage of the game, balancing is rather rough and will be improved by a mile even before open beta comes. 


  1. Guessing those stats will look very different after Serb's "historical adjustments" have taken place.

    1. 30mm guns are not historically correct now!

    2. Yes better nerf err historically adjust those down to one single Luger P08 which can only be used during stall speeds.

    3. They will nerf em once the russians from WoT start playing this game

    4. They are already in actually. :)

    5. And only play russian planes I see:D

    6. Nahh, the Russian players are good, but the top players flying the OP planes is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It turns out that high performance planes are fun to fly. Plus, there's plenty of bad players, not even guys with 2k battles can offset the majority of the population.

      I've actually stopped playing for the past few weeks because I had the choice of a P-51A and a Bf 109G, bought the P-51A and am utterly sick and tired of not having a chance against planes of the same tier because even though I can outfly most of the folks playing this game, I die terribly because getting five seconds of fire on an enemy doesn't kill him, but the half second he gets because my plane can't keep up and stalls is a guaranteed death.

      That's how OP the Germans are right now. I was merrily going towards the US planes, but the sad fact of the matter is that they aren't competitive.

    7. NDA aside I am really enjoying the US aircraft. They are completely underestimated in the hands of a good pilot.

  2. Hi Overlord,

    maybe you should also provide stats about the skill the players of those planes have. If most of the high skilled players play those german planes, there is no need for a nerf in my opinion ...

    Best regards,

    1. Not at all. There are a few issues that mean that German planes, which had wildly varying versions depending on loadout, get ridiculously overstated performance. It seems that variation between subtypes is directly linked to being overpowered, and German planes with zerstoerers and stripped down dogfighters on the same plane see a huge advantage.

  3. Same thing as in WoT will happen once WoWp launches

    1. Yes, everything will be balanced too. :)

    2. overlord why is WG so stubborn about putting some more pen to the germans, we players ask for nothing more but a little more pen :(

    3. Quote from Overlord: Yes, everything will be balanced too. :)

      WoT is too overbalanced... German tanks have been nerfed too much (balance patch) and USSR tanks have been buffed too much (historical accuracy patch) and now they have started nerfing USA tanks bit by bit. Alltough tier X german tanks are totally useless for time being, they are still atleast fun to play (it feels so much better killing IS7 with E100 than killing E100 with IS7 as killing an USSR tank with German tank needs a bit more skill).

      And for some reason I think that Germans got nerfed because of similar statistics page and forums posts (new players mostly play USSR tanks and start complaining before they learn to play)

  4. Overlord, how much experience I need to collect on SU-100 to research new soviet 7 tier TD in 0.8.0?

  5. You will find a way to nerf all these OP aircrafts. I have faith in you ;)

  6. Seems like the DEVs accidentally used historical data:)

  7. It is clear from those stats that, german planes are played much more (by the battle count) then other nations. Therefore that few players who play them constantly are getting much better with them. And there are very few players on the test server.

    I tried out most of the planes already, and now I only play the tier4 BF109, and I'm prity good with it because of that. Not realy interested in jets (high tiers).

    If there would be UK planes in the game then probably people would play those the most.

    My interest in planes are like this:


    For tanks:

    1. OP planes get more play because they're fun to fly. Nobody likes dying helplessly against planes in their own tier.

      It killed my enthusiasm going from the P-36 where it could be shot down pretty easily but I could still take down the entire enemy team if I flew it just right to being yet another easy kill for a 109G even if I outflew it by a wide margin.

    2. Yup, usually the better the vehicle, the more players play to get advantage of it.

    3. is that why barely anyone plays germans in WoT now? better vechicle = more players (usually bad players tough)

    4. @rixto003

      According to Snib's stats German tanks are most popular in WoT.

      Germany: 37.32%
      USSR: 29.81%
      USA: 20.61%
      France: 11.17%
      China: 1.08%

      I think that your definition of "barely anyone" is not too good.

    5. This is EU-only data, I suppose.

    6. Yes :)

      And on US server German tanks also are not "barely used"

      USA: 31.84%
      Germany: 29.86%
      USSR: 25.53%
      France: 10.33%
      China: 2.45%

    7. On RU side, Soviet tanks are naturally in the lead, while Germany is the 2nd popular faction.

  8. I drive all tanks and I fly all planes (all nations that is). I think the game (both WOT and WOWP) should be balanced first, fun to play second and historically accurate last(last of these three).

    First of a lot of the planes in that list have way too few battles to draw conclusions from these stats.
    High tier planes with that few battles means that these battles are probably flown by alpha veterans and therefore very good pilots.

    Also matchmaking with few players in the queue is less then optimal.
    So few battles + shaky MM = not very good data for win rates and XP.

    This reminds me of the WOT beta, where the 8,8cm L/56 and other German guns had historic penetration values.
    The devs actually used historic data and a lot of German tanks were doing well.
    Then something changed and they nerfed a lot of German gun penetration.
    (Smells like an executive decision).

    One tank has to be the best in a certain role (med/light/heavy/TD/SPG) but it can't be a German!

    To be fair the T-54 has to be mentioned.
    They also made it according to "historic data" (the best they could find as shown by the combination of the old 120mm hull and the new saucer turret).
    And it got nerfed what feels like a couple dozen times before it was balanced.

    Now let's look at at a list of WW2 flying aces:

    This does not directly reflect on the strength of the German aircraft as a lot of factors play a role in racking up a high score. However you have to scroll a looong way down to even find the first non German pilot.

    Now let's look at numbers:

    The Germans were fighting largely outnumbered in the sky. One reason why they got to shoot down as many planes. The other is that their training was very good. And for long periods of the war their aircraft were superior too.

    So if you model the planes and capabilities (crew is somewhat modeled in WOT and WOWP) according to historic values, the German warplanes should end up better.

    There are a lot of factors that make German planes great in WoWP but I don't want to go into details here because of the NDA.

  9. Overlord, you are running an interesting campain to make us understand that WG it's not anti german, but we'll see if it works...
    You showed in your posts that the german ingenireeng was overated, so the german had real limitations and the tanks are actually buffed comparing to reality. All that whille in the WOT fields fantasy tanks are "real". The players that run german tanks so not want to hear that, all we want is BALANCE. Top tier german tanks have the worst penetration with normal shells, worst camo values, worst mobility, and the hp buffs are useless as long as the tank doesn't performs too good.
    In the 0.8 patch will be imposiblle for the E 100 to shoot and damage an is 7 frontaly with normal shells, do you think E 100 will be able, with his great "mobility", to get in the side or the back of an is 7 to make a penetrating hit? And this leads to the big question, on some sites it's stated that the E 100 had a maximum speed of 40km/h, the limit of 30km/h in the game have reality or balance reasons?

    1. E-100 never actually hit the road, so those statements regarding its speed are nothing but guesstimations.

      However, not going to deny that E-100 is obvious underperformer and will be buffed in 8.0. Hopefully, guys do it right this time.

    2. Thanks for the replay, i'm really looking forward to hear more news about the changes in the upcoming patch.

  10. "Soviet bias has fully gone and there is a strong German bias instead"

    So you telling us and confess that WG were biased all this time towards soviets and WG will still be biased but this time in the favor of germans?

    Why not just be neutral torward to any nation?

    1. Confess? Not really! Don't take it that plain. At this stage WoWP is not properly balanced, cause it's not really the major goal. We are working on gameplay improvements and new features.

  11. Hah, I bet it's because of the fact that more experienced players choose harder German planes, it also applies to WoT and nerfing some perfectly balanced tanks due to WR boosting from skilled guys.

    1. It's because of the 30mm guns that are obviously OP atm.

  12. 1st: This is still beta so you have much time for patches to bring the russian on top....

    2nd: In my eyes this game is no fun at all, to slow reaction and no realistic aerodynamics, so there are much better games with warplanes.

  13. I am wondered about Serb's historically accurate bullshits. Actually, how the is he going to explain that even the soviet propaganda could only show up 62 frags....

    Oh and the Axis frag validating system was also stricter, than the allies. For example if two pilots claimed that the same frag is theirs, it just didnt count. In allied statistics it was simply divided...

    1. Soviet standards were stricter than German. They required confirmation, either by a ground unit or another pilot, as opposed to the German system which credited one of their top aces with confirmation from his letters to his girlfriend.

      Also in practice the German practice of discarding frags claimed by multiple pilots led to pressure on lesser pilots to let the big name aces claim them. In the USSR, disputed kills went to the unit, so there wouldn't be a miniature prisoner's dilemma each time claims conflicted, and the kills still didn't go to the pilots. The US used gun camera footage extensively and rotated pilots off the line frequently.

      You really need to look at the whole picture and think through the effects of differences, the unintended consequences are serious.

  14. Nobody has interresting on german aircrafts, give us more information over the M3 Lee :P!!!!!!!

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  16. What a lot of people don't understand is that the German airplanes have always mounted big cannons when the US airplanes liked to install 6+ machine guns on their airplanes. The US aircrafts have little to no chance to break a bandit's wing or tail with a 12.7mm bullet, however, the German and certain Russian airplanes can easily 1-shot any airplane with a single, well placed shell. That's why people don't like the US airplanes, it's because you need to keep your target in sight for a very long time.

    Also, each airplane has different fighting styles. The Germans have the turning advantage, the US has the speed advantage and the USSR has the advantage of RoF/firepower.

    Overlord, just a quick question: Do you already know the identity of the Alpha/Beta gift planes? Thanks!!

    1. "Also, each airplane has different fighting styles. The Germans have the turning advantage, the US has the speed advantage and the USSR has the advantage of RoF/firepower. "

      Woah. Woooaaahoooah! Slow down a second. That isn't even close to being historically correct. Being an old WW2 Flight Sim buff, I'm tempted to play this game. However seeing stuff like this comment, the HILARIOUSLY BAD tier / tech trees, the devotion to the 10 tier system when it is spectacularly apparent that it just doesn't fit in this system, ditching of anything remotely looking like real physics or flight models... It all makes me wonder if I should avoid touching this game with a ten foot pole.

    2. Just go away you sim-playing elitist. It's WG's game, they do whatever they want with it.

      I've played sims too, ranging from WWII to current day. I've also played my share of arcade games like Ace Combat. I find WoWp to be a perfect medley of the two.

      Go make your own game if you think WoT & WoWp are crap. Those games are the best games I've ever played. I don't care if the games are not accurate, the US planes are crap and that's enough justification for me to play the game :3

  17. Btw. i remember that in the erly stages of open beta for WoT the german tanks where also ok, but then the devs nerved them in nearly all patches.

    So i think the german planes will suffer the same fate.

  18. Hey OL,

    say us, what do you think about War Thunder?
    I am fan of WoT and WG long time, but WT seems to be better in EVERY way than WoWp - i know its still beta and Gaijin have more experiences with planes, but you absolutely cant compete with that game. Its simply awsome.

    1. Will give you my feedback, as soon as they lift NDA.

  19. Hi Overlord!

    As I stated already I gave up on WoWP because of the controlls. I would be willing to give it an other try, if one could save controll settings in profiles.

    I would like to comment your latest poll "Your opinion on "Digging Through Archives" posts" because there is now option to chose, which represents my opnion about it.

    It s nice that you share all these things with us, but sadly often vital information regarding the finds are missing.

    For example the tables with the penetration values are quiet interesting but it isnt stated how the numbers were determined. Are theis results of live tests or did the sowjets just calculate most of these numbers? At what kind of targets where the shots fired - stell plates fresh from the factory, burned out tank wrecks or tanks that were lmostly intact?

    Without these additional informations all these numbers and finds become "worthless" sadly.



  20. Hi Ovi!
    Can you tell us something about the planned improvement of that obvious underperformer E-100? :)
    Hope you will rise it´s 155mm gun penetration value... ;)

  21. Dear Ovi,

    Do you have data for the average kills per battle of the different servers?

  22. hi overlord,

    i´ve done some statistical tracker for wowp, also for planes of registered players


    here are my top 5 ;)

    Tier Plane Battles Wins Win % Lost Loss %
    5 Messerschmitt Bf.109E 3850 2350 61.04 % 1500 38.96 %
    7 Messerschmitt Me.209A1 3448 2032 58.93 % 1416 41.07 %
    6 Bell P-39Q Airacobra 3066 1800 58.71 % 1266 41.29 %
    6 Messerschmitt Bf.109G 3057 1837 60.09 % 1220 39.91 %
    4 Messerschmitt Bf.109C 2683 1610 60.01 % 1073 39.99 %

  23. Classical WG to use overall stats to see if planes are "OP". It's not a secure way, mostly because people who tend to fly russian are oftenly... less well educated.