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Dmitry Yudo aka Overlord, jack of all trades
David Lister aka Listy, Freelancer and Volunteer

Friday, August 8, 2014

[ALL] Teamkill or Not Teamkill

Writing this mostly referring to World of Tanks Blitz (well, to WoT PC/Xbox to some extent). 

Do you think teamkilling is a major issue in WoT-games? Does teamdamage in general a vital part of gameplay and atmosphere for you? 

For Blitz we are considering the idea of taking away shell-based team damage keeping ramming damage in place. If adopted, this will basically make obsolete the following things:
  • teamkilling complaints 
  • automated TK penalty system
  • credits compensation mechanics for being teamkilled
What do you think?

31 comments:

  1. I think team damage by shooting is not a problem at all. i don't even remember the last time someone shot at me intentionally. Compared to that ramming, blocking and pushing me out of cover is far more common and annoying.

    I only ahve access to WoT for PC:

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  2. I switched to 360 from PC , the TK issue gets out of hand especially during 5x weekends and such. No TK issues on Xbox

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  3. I think that TKing should be kept, because it requires that players actually think and exercise judgment, and at the same time, penalties should be much, much harsher. Someone who killed a friendly tank in a real battle would likely face court-martial afterwards, even if it was accidental. I don't have a problem with someone turning blue on the first point of TK damage for that match, as an example. (How the team decides to deal with it is up to them.)

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  4. When I shoot an ally in the back of the turret as they waltz between me and the target, I'm angry at many things, but the game engine isn't one of them.

    What I do know is that every time I bounce a shot off an ELC AMX, or its track eats my shell to no effect, THAT throws me out of the game. If my entire team starts bouncing similar shots, some part of me will be very sad.

    I'm not sure you want to go removing the compensation or teamkilling systems just because you've removed the ability to shoot each other, either. There are plenty of very, very light tanks that can be thoroughly wrecked by ramming. I can think of a few tanks that could have a good go at wrecking the entire allied team while being completely invulnerable in turn.

    On a more practical note, I would not be at all surprised that if given the ability to shoot allies with no penalties, people will. Pz 1C s in tier 5 games do some of this already, and certain heavily armoured tanks convince people that they can try the same thing. These same people will then ask why they got spotted first; well, it turns out firing your gun makes you easier to see. (This is also one of my major gripes with the existing tutorial in WoT; covering the fact that shooting removes the effects of bushes around you is really quite important).

    Basically, I don't want to encourage shooting allies even if the effect is diminished. And when I get shot, I want to know that I should be heading for cover, not ignoring it.

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    Replies
    1. Didn't quite get whether you support this or not.

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    2. I think removing it will just create other issues and that team damage should be left in (but obviously, intended team damage and team-killing should be thoroughly discouraged). Being shot should be a bad thing.

      If the ability to shoot teammates is removed, then remove ramming team damage too, since depending on the tank the offender is driving there will no possible way to retaliate.

      (I'm tailoring this argument slightly for Blitz: since there's no artillery, there are a few arguments that don't need to be made. Full disclosure, I haven't played it but will when it comes to Android, so I am following it)

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  5. I believe you should eliminate The penalty. If you are arty and you mark your target then u have a player go and ram it and he gets hit not your fault and you shouldn't have to pay for his stupidity. Smaller tanks run into heavier tanks and the heavy tanks pays the penalty. If there is team kill in a match players will report then there should be a big penalty like remove xp and credits and for them to pay for the dmg that they caused. Now when there are platoons that come into a match example 2 T 7's with a T1 and another player blows away the T1 I don't have an issue with it. He should never have been there in the first and ticks players off. Your match maker is sooo out of date. These kind of platoons should NEVER happen or be allowed.

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    Replies
    1. Ramming can be done in a variety of ways. It's hard to evaluate it correctly in 100% cases using automation.

      Player reports for TKing remind me of tribunal in LoL

      Delete
  6. I think it needs to be removed altogether, that way you either are or aren't trying to damage the opponents instead of griefing your fellow team mates in what ever capacity you feel has merits.

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  7. Throughout my first 1,700 games on Blitz I witnessed exactly one teamkill committed purposely. It was also justified (bad case of blocking). I also experienced two accidental teamkills, once when a tank with low hp swept into my line of fire as I pulled the trigger. (I was the other tank TKed—my fault.) As I started grinding my second line of tanks recently, my experience is that teamkilling has gotten completely out of hand in tiers one through three, a very different experience than when I first started playing in early July.

    Instead of turning a tank blue (which makes no sense) once it has tapped the same tank twice or two different tanks once (or whatever conditions/algorithms are used), why not have the play system DESTROY it? Just blow it up! I don't want to spend precious time, hp and ammo taking out a blue. And I would much rather play with one "teammate" less than have a TKing bonovasitch wreaking havoc from the backfield. When a player has been destroyed several times for teamkilling then ban him, for Pete's sake. There is no excuse for a teamkiller to reach the second tier, much less the third.

    But do not get rid of teamkilling in such a way that also stops accidental teamkilling. Doing so would encourage much more blatant kill stealing, with players sweeping into the line of fire unconcerned by the potentiality of getting their tank accidentally s-canned. A total TK ban would just create a new kind of problem.

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    1. Got your point.

      Blue colour is mostly a warning, not quite a punishment.

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    2. Just blow it up instead of getting blue.

      Thats a proper answer to continued friendly fire right there.
      The best i ve heard so far.

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    3. Turning a tank blue is like giving morons a free ticket for teamkill instead of focussing on the game

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  8. There should be no possibility to damage teamamate with fire (not counting splash maybe so not to make things to easy for arty). I had too many battles ruined by stupid teamkiller who destroyed me huge part of HP before was autobanned, so I couldnt take any risk in battle and was killed with one shot later.

    Also one teamkiller is enough to ruin battle, cause we lose tank destroyed by him and him, when he gets autobanned.

    But from the other side it can cause some stupid all time shooting at allies, people riding under your gun more often and other such behaviours. So I am not sure if it would be good idea.

    Best IMO would be much harsher punisments on intentional teamkillers/damagers both in bans and credits. 2 shots at ally should be treated really seriously (except for autocannons like in PzII or PzIc here some other way is needed). Was not long ago killed with 2 shots by some TD, he wasnt even made blue...

    BTW, I like last patch in WoT a lot. Maps are loading much faster. IS HD looks great, but StuG is much too light (in color), IMO looks much worse then previously.

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    1. Automated system will have a certain percentage of mistakenly taken decisions which will make unhappy both victims and killers.

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  9. OK, listen to me - " DO NOT REMOVE FRIENDLY FIRE... "

    Here is the thing. I've read the posts on BLitz forums and it's mostly aimed at the trolls that think it's fun to come into a match and cause "chaos" as they call it. I suppose if I was a brain dead, bored teenager this type of behavior could be mildly entertaining. There is a much better way to handle these so called trolls..

    Implement a threshold for the number of friendly hits allowed in a single match.. once that threshold is met, boot the player from the game AND the servers and require them to spend time logging back in. This is aggravate them.. thus the troll has been trolled. THEN - and this is important - LOWER THE THRESHOLD BY -1. Now the troller tries to do this again but is booted sooner.. continue to lower that threshold until they are at ZERO allowed FF incidents and then BAN THEM FOR MINIMUM of 24 hours.

    This then ruins their idiotic version of a "good time", allows the MAJORITY of players that WANT FF in the game to continue to use SKILL to avoid hitting teammates and the world of blitz is a much betterer place for it. DONE.

    IGN - Str8UpJack

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    1. The thing is that without TK, we can try to save both victims (from being killed and frustrated) and teamkillers (from being banned and frustrated).

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    2. I really like John's suggestion. I'd be happy with this fix.

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    3. Why would you want to save a person who's malevolent on purpose? If someone derives fun by ruining other peoples' fun, he has to go.

      If someone was sabotaging your company's work from inside, would you keep that person?

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    4. Especially on mobile in Blitz there is a number of accidental teamhits. Not talking about deliberate delinquents. They are to be punished.

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  10. mostly for blitz then the chance of misfire/mis aim is too high since the your control is lessened. Also it does cause grief and many cases of bans for defending your team mate. Defending your team mates is part of the game, so getting banned for that is just nonsense.

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  11. The team damage done by angry people is not a good thing, however being hit by your own while fighting is a very important part of the game play... In my opniion the current px system works okay, except I got kicked out once in a lowgame because a team noob ran in front of me while shooting an autocannon...

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  12. Why not another type of TK penalties in addition to straightforward ban?

    When someone is marked as a teamkiller, he will always be a bottom tier tank (for example: when driving Tiger, he's always in tier 9 battle) and stays there - until he scores a certain number of victories while being in the top x on your team by experience earned. This number of victories is relatively small for someone who did team damage for the first time - and getting progressively harsher for repeat offenders.

    This way, if you don't improve/redeem yourself, you can (theoretically) stay there indefinitely.

    You won't be able to wait out your penalty (as it's not time-based) or bot (as you need to both win and perform well).

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    Replies
    1. That's a difficult punishment in terms of implementation. Not really worth it.

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  13. This sounds like a reasonable sort of system, so long as this threshold can't be worked out (since people can try and play up to it, but not past it).

    I suspect that something like percentage of team's hitpoints will work better than raw hits to account for gun and tier differences, plus it's dynamic and harder for them to work out on the fly.

    (btw, I have no problem with teamkillers being banned and frustrated. Sounds like an ideal outcome, although I sympathise with your support team who ends up dealing with them.)

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  14. I would modify the current system to freeze the TK'r on the battlefield after twoTK hits. His tank is immobilized, turret doesn't turn, can't shoot etc. The only way out of the game is to be killed or reboot. If he does it twice in the same day 24 hour ban, If he goes further than that, I'll let you use your imagination.

    The TK'rs that really get my blood boiling are the ones who take a shot at you as the game is closing. After the game is won, sometimes there is a 2-3 second lag until the game quits. If someone hits a teammate during that time period, they should lose any XP they have earned during that battle, and get a 30-min ban. If he does it twice in the same day 24 hour ban

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  15. I find it difficult to justify the time, effort, and resources put into any sort of team damage system. I think no matter what you do, or how excellent your system is (and it's pretty damned good already) you will still have complaints and problems generated by team damage.

    Lack of fire control is already punished by reducing the damage done to the other team. It is not as realistic as team damage, but realistic is not = to fun or smart.

    Look at it this way - resources are finite. Is this a good uses of Wargaming's resources? I don't think so - just eliminate it and spend those resources on building voice chat for platoons, or more maps, or tanks, or other cool stuff I can't think of. Any team damage system you come up with will be inferior to just not allowing team damage in terms of my enjoyment of the game.

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    1. Thx. Auto-system can hardly be flawless.
      Even though it's sort of 50/50, I think we gonna try disabling teamdamage for Blitz altogether as an experient.

      Delete
  16. Team damage is not a problem at higher tiers at the moment, but for WoT Blitz it is not really necessary and adds very little value IMO.

    A shot that hits a friend is wasted so you get a kind of penalty for covering shots/shooting friendlies, and with the limited controls/vision there is IMO too high a risk of accidental TKs leading to grief and banning of 'innocents'.

    E.g. if I play on my ipad mini with the charger connected then the main gun discharges at random 3-10 times per match... so now I don't play with charger connected anymore. ;)

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