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Dmitry Yudo aka Overlord, jack of all trades
David Lister aka Listy, Freelancer and Volunteer

Wednesday, May 23, 2012

[WoT] Digging Through Archives: Fighting First Tigers

Resolution by State Defense Committee of the USSR passed in May 1943 in Moscow on how to withstand German heavy tanks. The decision was based on first battle contact with Tiger tanks on Eastern Front.

1. Artillery Directorate General of the Red Army, Central Artillery Design engineering bureau, and other responsibilities were ordered to:
  • improve the ballistics of 85mm tank gun is such a way that it would penetrate 100-110mm of armour at a distance of 2000m. The prototype was to be placed at disposal of Kirov Plant by June 15, 1943 for trials.
  • design, produce, and forward to testing a special 100mm tank gun prototype with separate loading and ballistics, ensuring penetration of 120-130mm at a distance of 2000m by July 1, 1943.
2. The National Ammunition Committee and Central Artillery Design engineering bureau were ordered to:
  • launch, as soon as possible, but not later than June 1, 1943, the production of 57mm HE rounds with fragmentation effect .
  • perfect, as soon as possible, but not later than June 1, 1943, 76mm AP rounds for F-34 tank gun so that they are able to penetrate side 82mm armour of T-VI tank (Tiger I tank) at a distance of 600m .
  • perfect, as soon as possible, but not later than June 15, 1943, 76mm APCR rounds for F-34 tank gun so that they are able to penetrate front 100mm armour of T-VI tank (Tiger I tank) at a distance of 500m.
3. The National Tank Production Committee was ordered to:
  • mount 57mm tank gun (ZiS-4) on T-34 tanks starting with May 15, 1943. The ration of T-34 tanks with ZiS-4 gun to total ratio of T-34 tanks produced should be 20-30%.
  • produce, based on T-70 suspension, 3 prototypes of self-propelled guns - SU-57 armed with 57mm gun by June 1, 1943. The specified prototypes were to be tested within 10 days with the results submitted
  • produce, based on SU-152 suspension, a prototype of self-propelled gun armed with 122mm mod. 1931 gun by June 1, 1943. Later series should be equally divided between 122mm and 152mm vehicles.
  • produce, based on T-34 modules, a prototype of self-propelled gun armed with 85mm tank gun (SU-85) following the SU-76 design with rear firing compartment by July 1, 1943.
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  1. Overlord just asking, how exactly do you get a hold of these documents?

    1. Our military experts have access to various archives.

    2. Where in those archives does it say that the Tiger has armor equal to a wet paper bag?

    3. The issue, I think, is not in speccing the Tiger (or any other tank). The issue is what opposes them. WoT, by its design, encourages players to run to the top of their tree, and since these spots are populated by post-war or prototype/blueprint-only tanks, the opposition is fiercer than the real Tigers, et al, had to deal with.
      If there was a game mode that admitted only serving vehicles, and those only in realistic proportions, I would be there all the time. Right now, the game attempts to engage two populations - serious historical simmers and FPSers - and handles neither to their full satisfaction.

    4. lonesentry.com has a huge collection of Intelligence Bulletins for G.I.s in WWII, one of which is the translated article from above.
      here is the link to the archive:

  2. He is a KGB agent, infiltrated under cover in the dev team of WoT, with the mission to bias the game toward the russian tanks. This way the world will see the how glorious they are and a real life conflict using 40' tanks will result in a decisive defeat for the western society.

    1. We could base a whole new game on that, no doubt. )

  3. Some think that you already did base a game on that OL. ;)

  4. Overlord, Is it possible you ever plan to make an RTS using say... WOT Models or something?

    1. i think they did it the other way round. went from rts to fps.

      they have a game called order of war.

  5. You can just feel the panic the Red Army must have felt when the Tiger first made it's appearance on the Ostfront by reading these documents.

    1. Yeah, if the in game Tiger could only remotely resemble that feeling for a tank above Tier 4.

    2. I tend to disagree. Not being a fan of heavies, I still consider Tiger to be rather good overall. And when it comes to fighting lower tiers (4-6) from distance, it's nearly perfect imo.

    3. Tiger biggest problem in this game is that he meets so many tanks made many years after 1943. When you fight in Tiger only against T-34 or Shermans, you are almost unstopable.

    4. you know how during the war Shermans beat a tiger by going behind it and sacrificing 2-4 of their number for the kill?

      It works in this game too

    5. One of the problems is, that the Tiger H and the IS-1/2
      are a good step behind the Tiger P and the T29.
      Both deserve a buff. I played all tier 7 heavies (except for
      the T29 I own them still ^^).

    6. @Snortsch

      Disagree. T29 is the best, no doubt, but Tiger P and IS are equal. Didnt play with KW3 yet but i guess that it is stronger than Tiger H.

    7. Ì almost only play top tier tanks. aka patton, t110 etc

      And a tiger can really hurt you if he is sniping from a distance, when i am fighting another top tier.

      Allot of ppl leave them alone due to their low tier in those battles, and because of this the tigers are really annoying and can make you lose the fight.

      A tiger played right is a good tank, problem is allot of ppl dont know how to play :+)

    8. @plasot

      The IS is equal to the Tiger H,
      but has serious problems getting through the
      Tiger P's armor, it's low accuracy doesn't
      make it any easier to hit the Tiger P's weakspots.
      The Tiger P and the IS are worlds apart.

    9. WoT's game design (not the tank design itself) is the cause of this 'problem'. The real Tiger's strength was engaging the enemy before they could get in range to shoot back (like over 1000 meters, for example). Once the enemy did, THEN they had to contend with the Tiger's armor. The 88's range was what made it so lethal.

      WoT's combat range does not allow this to happen for ANY tank. Most direct fire combat happens under 500 meters, at best. More typically, around 2-400 meters. This is why russian tanks are likely to feel a bit more favorable, because most of the upper tiers were designed as assault tanks in real life. The ranged advantage the german vehicles had in real life isn't going to happen because of the limits of the game engine.

    10. In the light of this, WG should scale down the gun's penetration at range (the shell should loose more energy than in real life). Set the gun's penetration value to half range. Like
      ingame @50m = real life @100m
      ingame @100m = real life @200m
      ingame @500m = real life @1000m.

  6. definately surprised the crap out of them if they were requesting this much of an overhaul for their tanks.

  7. The Tiger always had a reputation that far exceeded its macro influence. A great tank but flawed. The Tank Museum in the UK have some video footage of their Tiger online, recently fully restored and running which is worth a watch :-)

  8. Overlord, I really hate to be one of those people who ask completely unrelated questions on your blog, but I feel obliged to make a special plea on behalf of the VK4502P.

    Right now I'm on the VK4502A and, in spite of other people's whining about it, I'm really enjoying it. The problem is that, as I'm working towards the VK4502P, I'm slowly realizing that it has virtually no redeeming qualities over the E-75 and a litany of weaknesses. I don't know if its necessarily a bad tank since I do not yet own one, but it does seem to be clearly inferior tot he E-75.

    Its performance stats, as you have said, are withing acceptable bounds, and I believe you, but out of mere pittance to some of the forum whiners could the devs possibly shave off half of a second off of reload speed? Or just something tiny like that so it looks like it has SOME kind of advantage over the E-75?

    Thank you, and again I'm sorry for making a post like this in such an unsuitable spot.

  9. I'm aghast at the prospect of a May meeting requiring major tech and industrial breakthroughs by June 1. Such things take months or years - not days.
    So either these were orders to finish up projects long in development (stop your foot-dragging, boys!), or - knowing Stalin's penchants - there were going to be lots of heads rolling on the floor come June.

  10. lol with that many ammunition projects we'll end up having to research different ammos for our tanks XD

    Any word on secondary cannons Overlord?

  11. Hey Ovi! :)

    Can we expect some cool WW2 music in the next patches?

    When we roll with our tanks over the field and some battle music in the background...whats better? :D

  12. Hey Overlord, some questions for you :P

    1) How are the win rates of the IS-8 and KV-4 on the russian server? Do you think there is some rebalance required?

    2) Regarding the WoWP closed beta, everyone who sent a request for the public Alpha will get accepted in the closed beta, or there will be still some players that will have to wait?

    3) How much your routine changed when you become a developer of WoWP? Would be nice to get some kind of reports of the life inside WG :)

    Thank you

  13. over:
    are you thinking in put ELC light tanks (elc-even, elc-amx and elc-bis) like a second branch for french tanks?
    Maybe are you thinking in put AMX-30?

  14. Over: in this old post
    Some one ask this one:

    Q: Overlord tell me if the T92 HMC (spg) will have
    8 crew
    the body of the pershing
    the 240 mm mortar

    and you ask this one:

    A: UI restricts us to 6 crewmen per vehicle.

    The question is: you have the same problem now?

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